Urban settings: M14, M1 underappreciated?

I have been thinking back to something a relative told me about the M1 Garand in WWII recently.
For urban fighting the TV programs all say troops want shorter, compact rifles to clear rooms because they make it easier to "slice the pie". However these shorter rifles or even the SMG's lack penetration and knock down power. Especially if body armor (plates) are encountered. So a user would effectively "slice the pie" only to have a prolonged exposure while multiple rounds are fired to try and neutralize the threat.

One thing we were told by a WWII vet in our family was one reason they liked the M1 was that if the enemy were lined up right, you could drop 2-3 with one shot. It would penetrate through 2-3 soldiers.

That is where I think modern thinking needs reset. Would you rather turn the corner with the confident ability neutralize someone with a single shot, or with a carbine you know is going to take 2-4 shots? If you turned the corner on three guys stacked up, wouldn't it be nice to just pull the trigger once and drop all three?
I think our relative and others must have experienced this....

ApacheCoTodd said:

I think all potential conclusion drawn from the premise that anyone in a combat situation would wait for the enemy to line up so that 2-3 could be hit with the same round is not only astoundingly suspect, but worthy only of being repeated to elicit guffaws over beers.

Todd.

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Who said anything about waiting?

Merle1 said:

personally I would be reluctant to turn loose a .308 or a 30-06 in a friendly neighborhood.....

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Right, we are not talking about friendly neighborhoods.

Dave DeLaurant said:

I understood that WWII SOP for room clearing was to start with a grenade.

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Sounds good to me. But remember knockdown power is a myth

jmr40 said:

No reason for soldiers to carry rifles suitable for hunting 1200 lb moose. It's been 50 years and people still want to complain about the 5.56 round being underpowered. Maybe the pendulum swung a little too far toward the light side with the 223, but I can promise you we'd have filled more body bags over the last 50 years if we'd stayed with the 308 or 30-06. Rather than hoping 2-3 guys lined up just right and taking them out with 1 round ( I'm sure it is possible), I'd rather have more ammo in a controllable to shoot package.

People want to talk about instances where the 223 didn't stop someone fast enough. They don't want to discuss the soldiers in WW-2 that died or surrendered because they ran out of ammo. The M1 was revolutionary for it's time, but it's time is over. The M14 was a failed experiment.

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There is another scene in the movie 1917 where two guys face opposite ways to clear a trench with their 303's. Wouldn't want to have to work the bolt but you shoot center of mass with that 303, I think the trench scene clears starts to clear out pretty quick.

briansmithwins said:

Using a cartridge designed for shooting at 800 at bad breath distances has disadvantages: recoil reduces the speed of follow up shots, the rifle is bigger and heavier than necessary, and you can’t carry as much ammo (both in each magazine and total round count) as a lighter weapon.

I find it telling that the IDF expects to fight a lot in other people’s houses and from vehicles chose the short barreled Tavor as their main rifle.

BSW

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All good points

Casefull said:

Knockdown power is a myth because a lot of the bullet energy Is expended after it goes through the subject. Hang up a large chunk of beef or deer or elk. Shoot a pistol round through it. Then shoot with a 556 round. Then shoot it with a 308 or 06. The 30 caliber round will leave a fist sized hole. The other two not so much. Get hit in the arm bone or leg bone with a 308 and most of the time your arm or leg is gone. Again not so much the other rounds.

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Right, and I don't think of 30-06 as knock down so much as I think of it as "goes through him, his buddy, and the guy that just showed up with a 30 cal. and steadily increasing sized hole."