current "Winchester" (Miroku) M1885 for long range hunting?

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RavenTai

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So I am in the deep south where our average shot on small white tail is about 70 yd in heavy brush. 30-30 can do anything you need, Efficient sleak flat shooting low drag bullets do not buy you much here unless you can hunt on a power line right of way or other long open space.



I may be moving to the mountain west for work (eastern Oregon) and I hear elk are very tasty but i also hear ranges of several hundred yards are common in the high desert. Very much changes the skills I need, and quite possibly the equipment I carry.

I have several bolts in 30-06, and that could do the job but I kinda want to to move up to the current century. In cartrige at least.

I have been thinking .270 or 6.5CM my shoulder does not want to go magnum.

I have also always wanted an 1885, I think they are beautiful, love the ultra short action, everything you need and nothing you don't, and they used to be considered "very accurate".

But bolt guns have cone a long way in the past 20 years or so, production guns are coming with a lot of features and precision formerly only seen in custom benches rifles.

I would hate to find out several thousand $ in wood, steel, brass and glass later plus hours of range time that I should have stuck with the herd and got a bolt.

I hear the Miroku 1885's have lawyer influenced trigger group, about the only complaint I can find. People say they are "accurate" but most are chambered in 45-70, not much feedback on the bottle necked chambered 1885's, they look beautiful but how do they shoot? Looking for a MOA rifle, is that a reasonable expectation from these Japanese Winchesters?
 
They weigh 8 1/2 lbs before you add a scope, closer to 10 lbs with one. When your 5 miles from the road at 8000'+ you'll wish you had something lighter. They are beautiful rifles and may shoot great, but wouldn't be my choice for rugged country. I don't think men were necessarily tougher in the 1800's. They carried those type of rifles because it was they had no other choice. I CAN carry a rifle that heavy, but choose not to. A bolt gun will be considerably lighter, probably more accurate, rugged and reliable. Cost less too.

The 6.5 CM shoots the same bullet weights about 150-200 fps slower at the muzzle than 270. But the same bullet weights in 26 caliber will penetrate deeper than 27, 28, or 30 caliber. They are also more aerodynamic. While the 270 starts out faster, by the time you get to 300 yards the same bullet weights in a 6.5 are a virtual tie and at extreme ranges will pass 270. The 270 will always shoot a little flatter, but we're talking about around 1" less drop at 300 yards. In other words no animal will ever notice the difference and 270 is a proven round. No reason the 6.5 won't be just as good. But I'd not drop bellow 26 or 27 caliber and bullet choice is a little more important with the smaller calibers when you're talking about elk size game.

The 270 is a great choice, but was developed in 1925. Not much younger than your 30-06. And there is nothing wrong with the 30-06. Sounds like you're looking for an excuse to buy another rifle. And there isn't anything wrong with that either.

Beyond that cartridge choice is personal choice. I carried my 7 1/4 lb (scoped) 308 elk hunting in Colorado. I walked 5-7 miles every day between 9000-11,000 ft and wouldn't have wanted anything heavier. But any of the common 26-30 caliber cartridges will do about the same thing. Just use a bullet designed for bigger game.
 
I love the rifles, but.... getting an optic to fit from an eye relief perspective will be a challenge due to the receiver shape, and you'll lose all semblance of cheekweld in the process.
 
They made a browning branded model as well that had a Monte Carlo stock with a semi pistol grip more appropriate for scope use. The predecessor was called the B78 which they made in the 70’s. I’ve been wanting one for awhile.
 
When your 5 miles from the road at 8000'+ you'll wish you had something lighter. .


You know what, I completely forgot about altitude, I live at about 100' above sea level, i am in decent shape, I walk 5-10 miles a day for work, up and down stairs, years ago, 2003 I think. I missed a flight connection in salt lake city, next flight was 18 hours so i rented a car went up the little cottonwood canyon, at the top the was a great view and I wanted a picture and I parked and scrambled up a little hill, kinda steep but nothing crazy, stepping up one rock at a time, my muscles cold do the hike no problem easy, but m about about 20 yards in I was very suddenly out of gas, huffing and puffing, heart racing like mad, and had to sit down right there. Hopefully I can adjust.


Yes I am looking to buy a new rifle, but i have to justify it somehow. Lol
 
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They made a browning branded model as well that had a Monte Carlo stock with a semi pistol grip more appropriate for scope use. The predecessor was called the B78 which they made in the 70’s. I’ve been wanting one for awhile.
I got a B-78 when they first came out for my 14th birthday present, my first center fire. I still have it, couple things not to like about it. Scope rings that came with it are the only ones you can use. So you are stuck with 1 inch. Second thing is stock trigger ranks up there with 10/22s as the worst ever. Back then I was able to change mine I dont think you could find one today. I still have mine and will keep it forever. Glad my Dad changed the trigger.
 
I'm pretty into Miroku 1885s and B78s, so hopefully I can provide some info.

  • Accuracy is inherently good - free floated, no receiver flex to talk about, and decent barrels. Your odds are good relative to many other options, but it's not a "premium" match type barrel from the factory. They are the most accurate commonly available single shots though.
  • There are both pistol grip and straight stock variants out there. IMO the pistol grip is so far superior that I won't buy a straight stock. This goes double for heavy calibers.
  • You do NOT have to use the provided rings. Talley is your friend.
  • You can re-barrel them to anything that floats your boat pretty much. Weight is whatever you want it to be - the gun's just a barrel and a way to hold onto it more or less.
  • Triggers are the weak point - complex, hard to work on, limited replacements, etc. I'm not sure who is actually capable of working on them right now. There is a book running around in BPCR circles that has disassembly, assembly, and adjustment instructions. A lighter spring is most of the battle. Do NOT disassemble one of the triggers without instructions or lots of time on your hands.
  • You can get great velocity for a given cartridge due to the long barrels (using the extra inches of receiver that aren't there). Regular cartridges become "magnums", magnums become ultra-mags etc.
6.5CM, 30mm rings. It can't quite match my .264WM, but it gets amazingly close.
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I'm pretty into Miroku 1885s and B78s, so hopefully I can provide some info.

  • Accuracy is inherently good - free floated, no receiver flex to talk about, and decent barrels. Your odds are good relative to many other options, but it's not a "premium" match type barrel from the factory. They are the most accurate commonly available single shots though.
  • There are both pistol grip and straight stock variants out there. IMO the pistol grip is so far superior that I won't buy a straight stock. This goes double for heavy calibers.
  • You do NOT have to use the provided rings. Talley is your friend.
  • You can re-barrel them to anything that floats your boat pretty much. Weight is whatever you want it to be - the gun's just a barrel and a way to hold onto it more or less.
  • Triggers are the weak point - complex, hard to work on, limited replacements, etc. I'm not sure who is actually capable of working on them right now. There is a book running around in BPCR circles that has disassembly, assembly, and adjustment instructions. A lighter spring is most of the battle. Do NOT disassemble one of the triggers without instructions or lots of time on your hands.
  • You can get great velocity for a given cartridge due to the long barrels (using the extra inches of receiver that aren't there). Regular cartridges become "magnums", magnums become ultra-mags etc.
6.5CM, 30mm rings. It can't quite match my .264WM, but it gets amazingly close.
View attachment 885165
Thanks for scope base info, I have always disliked the stock rings. How long have those been available?
 
Llama Bob, that's a beautiful rifle and exactly what I was thinking. the only thing missing a nice sling, you hit on a lot of what attracts me to the 1885, the breach face is so close to the buttstock, all the length normally taken up by the action becomes much more useful barrel length.


Winchesters website lists a pistol grip 6.5CM but its exclusive to galley of guns and appears to no longer be listed there. this is not a right now purchase so I will keep my eyes open

http://www.winchesterguns.com/produ...high-wall-hunter-high-grade-65-Creedmoor.html

I do like the classic looks of the straight stock but from shotguns I know the feel of the pistol grip will be better,

The trigger problem is a doosie, can you go into more detail about what they have done to this action? nobody seams to like it much, but I havent seen details about what they did,

I did run into an interesting video of an original 1885 tear down, it was so simple, looked fully capable of complete disassembly in the field.

the full disassembly is an un-editied one minute 40 seconds! I mourn the loss of such a great design.



The Miroku's are stunning to look at though, machine work and finish are superb.

 
The new trigger just has a lot of parts and has a tendency to have a heavier than desired two stage pull. I'm OK with mine, but a lot of people have been unhappy.

The 6.5CMs, especially the high grades, sold out very fast. I have to imagine there will be another run since anything 6.5CM sells like hotcakes, but right now they're unobtainable. If it were me, I'd consider a B78 in 7mm RM or .30-06. Those pop up used frequently - often on Guns International for some reason. You have to search various combinations of "B78", "B-78", and "78" to find them all. And of course search Winchester 1885s.
 
If you want a lever, I'd look into a Henry Long Ranger.

But I'd probably just use the '06 already in the safe. Maybe use the money to bring it up to date i.e. new stock and some nice glass and maybe a trigger.
 
Online most listings seem to be asking $1200+ for an original Browning B78 in good condition. Do they actually sell for that much? Looking at one locally for $700 and thought that was high.
 
I'm pretty into Miroku 1885s and B78s, so hopefully I can provide some info.

  • Accuracy is inherently good - free floated, no receiver flex to talk about, and decent barrels. Your odds are good relative to many other options, but it's not a "premium" match type barrel from the factory. They are the most accurate commonly available single shots though.
  • There are both pistol grip and straight stock variants out there. IMO the pistol grip is so far superior that I won't buy a straight stock. This goes double for heavy calibers.
  • You do NOT have to use the provided rings. Talley is your friend.
  • You can re-barrel them to anything that floats your boat pretty much. Weight is whatever you want it to be - the gun's just a barrel and a way to hold onto it more or less.
  • Triggers are the weak point - complex, hard to work on, limited replacements, etc. I'm not sure who is actually capable of working on them right now. There is a book running around in BPCR circles that has disassembly, assembly, and adjustment instructions. A lighter spring is most of the battle. Do NOT disassemble one of the triggers without instructions or lots of time on your hands.
  • You can get great velocity for a given cartridge due to the long barrels (using the extra inches of receiver that aren't there). Regular cartridges become "magnums", magnums become ultra-mags etc.
6.5CM, 30mm rings. It can't quite match my .264WM, but it gets amazingly close.
View attachment 885165

Lee Shaver Gunsmithing did two triggers on the 1885 low walls I owned. He specializes in the old firearms. Really improved the triggers and a nice guy to deal with.

http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/
 
Online most listings seem to be asking $1200+ for an original Browning B78 in good condition. Do they actually sell for that much? Looking at one locally for $700 and thought that was high.
I'd say with nearly perfect wood and metal, yes they sell for that much.

At $700 I would buy any chambering if in decent shape.
 
Mine is a Browning (Miroku) 1885 Low Wall, chambered in .223, and has a Burris 3x9 Compact scope mounted on it. A very accurate and handy little rifle that is one of my favorite "walk-around" varmint rifles.
 
I have a Pedersoli 1885 in .45-70... love it. It is not a hunting rifle, for sure, with it's 32" heavy barrel, but both Pedersoli and Uberti make hunting 1885's with more realistic dimensions. Mine has a single set trigger... that is, once you load it and cock it... you can 1) just pull the fairly heavy trigger, or 2) push the trigger forward to 'set' it... the trigger is now something like 2-3#'s and a very clean break. There are also 'double set triggers,' those are the ones you see with two triggers... same basic philosophy, slightly different application.

Now that I'm looking at Uberti, all I see is .45-70's; their chamberings change for year to year. Pedersoli as well seems to have shifted it's emphasis to 'old west' replicas, they don't seem to have modern platform 1885's.

I would buy a Browning/Winchester Miroku every day and twice on Sunday... their quality is excellent. I have owned a Browning 1886, and I still own my Browning 71... both are fine rifles. I always wanted a B-78, but I was so busy back then buying handguns I never got around to it.

I don't know that I would want to hunt with a 1885, there are better tools for the job. Given where you are going, a good bolt gun in .30-06 would probably be my choice.
 
Got a Browning BPCR in 45-70 and tang shaver sights.
She's a porky thing but I love her. Tosses a 510gr 45cal slug as accurate as I can hold inside of 6 inches at 500yds.

She probably weighs about 10# and I wouldn't want to carry her at 6-7000 feet up here in N Arizona.
 
Uberti is offering a M1885, with a scope mount on top, 22" barrel, in 45/70

That's the one I was thinking about. My only concern is, on a lighter weight hunting rifle, and pushing bullets to hunting velocity... recoil is going to be severe.

She probably weighs about 10# and I wouldn't want to carry her at 6-7000 feet up here in N Arizona.

My thoughts as well...
 
I have a Browning B-78 with an older Leupold VX-III mounted. No problem getting the correct eye relief or cheek weld. Mine is in .22-250 and oddly enough, it's not a heavy barrel, but an octagonal. It shoots very well. Granted, it's not a caliber for elk, but the rifle is superb in all respects. It's sort of like a fine watch. Fit and finish is excellent and if you can deal with a single shot, I'd say look around until you can find a nice one... or a newer version '85 in a caliber you want. When hunting with it, you'll probably end up carrying a second cartridge between your fingers like a cigar, ready to slide into the chamber... a friend has one in .243 and he loves his as well.
 
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