Urban settings: M14, M1 underappreciated?

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The A1 definitely isn't a leaf free SS109. Completely different design. It does significantly better than M855 against hard barriers. It also fragments much more reliably that M855.

Meant lead free SS109 replacement instead of lead free version. Brain hasn't been operating on a full magazine lately. My unit did some test shots comparing the two against old vehicle armor panels and there wasn't much difference in penetration for whatever reason. My guess is they were not consistently shooting the targets at the same angle.
 
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Meant lead free SS109 replacement instead of lead free version. Brain hasn't been operating on a full magazine lately. My unit did some test shots comparing the two against old vehicle armor panels and there wasn't much difference in penetration for whatever reason. My guess is they were not consistently shooting the targets at the same angle.

I'm guessing it probably has more to do with the armor. A 9mm ball round has better penetration than a 22 hollowpoint, but against an AR500 target they look the same. Guys that I've talked to that tested both said the A1 was definitively better at penetrating common cover items.
 
The Japanese fought differently to Americans and Germans... fanaticism... Bushido... Granddaddy told me about the japs... pull the pin on a grenade, run up on an American and grab a handful of shirt... blow 'em both up. I haven't heard that they treated civilians in occupied territories so great either.



Still good to have a .30cal... maybe you got a harder target farther out... M4 has its place, but each rifle has strengths and weaknesses. Something about the right tool for the job.

Good to have a .30 cal? Sure. It’s always good to have options, but as a standard line item, the AR platform in 5.56 is plenty effective at normal combat distances.
 
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I carried an M16A1 when I was in the Army, this was, obviously, before the M4 was commonplace. I also have a 16" barreled M1a... a Socom16. Looking at the photo, the are the same basic length, and as much as I love my Socom16, I'd take an M16 over it in an urban environment... the limits of the 5.56mm round not withstanding.

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Now... I also have a lightweight 16" AR carbine (fixed shorty stock, not a slider...) and after carrying that for a bit, and then switching to the H-Bar (20" barrel)... the A2 feels like a boat oar. It's amazing what 4" less barrel will do for you.

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I love my M1 Garand... it's a fantastic rifle, a rifleman's rifle for sure. When I was in the '80's Army, we trained to repel the Great Red Hoarde, not kick doors in or operate in a tight environment. My -A1 was fine (in fact, I prefer the A1 stock over a slider...) and in that environment... engaging targets at distance... I would have been happy with an M1 or M14, too. Not for an urban environment. Further... the .308 out of a 16" barrel is pretty intense; the Socom16 has a very effective muzzle brake, but it would get pretty old pretty quick indoors, as I suspect any 20"+ .308 or .30-06 rifle would be.... those cartridges just don't make sense except for a specialized placement in a team or other unique circumstance.
 
Combat is one thing, urban defense is another. Penetration is an advantage in combat -- people will hide behind walls and such when you're shooting at them, and you need to be able to shoot through those walls. And who cares where the bullet goes after that? It's enemy territory.

But in urban defense, you have to worry about where the bullet goes, because your neighbors live over there.
 
On my first deployment to AE 06-07, the battalion I was attached to had a Connex (40' shipping container) FULL of M14s and magazines.

And those damn 14s stayed locked in the container. To my knowledge, no-one in the entire battalion wanted to carry one. In an infantry battalion. Hell, we had troops so gung-ho (and NCOs so permissive), I saw an E4 carrying a wakizashi like he was a retainer in feudal Japan. But no M14s.
 
On my first deployment to AE 06-07, the battalion I was attached to had a Connex (40' shipping container) FULL of M14s and magazines.

The EBR version or the older wood stock kind? Old ones would be an impressive sight. We had a few guys get issued the EBR in 2010. Usually the attached JFO/13F carried one. As far as weird battle carry items. No swords for us. Did have a few people carry large axes or modest machetes.
 
It's very interesting to find a few comments from actual combat veterans.

Just one more idea: for the civilian perspective, go find one of these Koreans for an opinion. You might recognize them from the LA Race Riots in '92.
Whatever they had, besides what looks like a Mini 14, I've never read that any of them needed to go inside a building to fight, or fire many warning shots-if any at all. The guns' visibility to savages in the streets seemed to be an effective deterrent.

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Wouldn't an M-1 or M1A-1 also work well during widespread street anarchy with overwhelmed police?
The mere sight of it held upwards in your sweating hands might Inspire somebody who makes terrible "life decisions" to immediately "turn his or her life around".
 
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I served a dozen years in law enforcement, including a handful of years doing high risk warrant service and fugitive recovery. I’d clear my house with my Socom 16 if I didn’t have better options available. For bumps in the night I’ll stick to my Glock or AK or shorty shotty. That said, where I live the Socom has its place. It’s just not inside the house. Some of y’all have done heavier stuff than me, but I bet most of you have the same opinion I do.
 
The military is severely crippled by the Geneva convention of 1899 which outlaws expanding bullets. Hence they are limited to FMJ type ammo which I do not question will go through 3 enemies with one 30-06 shot... not what I would consider ideal for home / personal defense though. Some how civilians have been blessed with the right to own and use hollow points and other more terminal ammo.

A perfect round for home defense is hard to quantify... there are so many variables. Hand gun, carbine, long gun? Perp in body armor? Dense city population or sparse rural population? Apartment in the city, house in the burbs or cabin in the woods? Single sole occupant or a family on the other side of that 1/2" drywall? Meth head, bob cat or grizzly (yep, had to go there!)? Robber, LA riot or Red Dawn? Etc., etc., etc. There are just too many variables to choose one perfect round.

I tend to prefer big fat bullets... the 50 Beowulf comes to mind as a nice all rounder... although I have never been an AR fan. A .50AE carbine would have appeal to me! My primary home defense gun and preferred carry gun are both .45 acp. I do have an AK close at hand at home just in case. Even though I own both a Garand and a HK91 the AK is definitely more controllable so I guess I am forfeiting the body armor penetration I would get from a Garand with black tips.

I don't believe that one universal round that is perfect for all occasions exists.

I can honestly say that there is no round I would rather have for personal defense than 5.56... if I were being attacked by a swarm of sage rats.
 
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The Hague Declaration of 1899 did prohibit the use in international war of bullets that flatten or expand.

The US was not a signatory to the Hague Convention.

However, the US did abide by the prohibition. Even .22 LR and .38 Special cartridges issued to military personnel were loaded with FMJ bullets.

That was then.

Today, 9MM JHP loads are issued for military use in situations in which limiting penetration can help reduce collateral damage.
 
The Hague Declaration of 1899 did prohibit the use in international war of bullets that flatten or expand.

The US was not a signatory to the Hague Convention.

However, the US did abide by the prohibition. Even .22 LR and .38 Special cartridges issued to military personnel were loaded with FMJ bullets.

That was then.

Today, 9MM JHP loads are issued for military use in situations in which limiting penetration can help reduce collateral damage.

Thank you for the clarification!

The 7.62×51mm NATO and 5.56×45mm NATO cartridges our troupes are issued currently are FMJ though?
 
Not all FMJ are created equal. The .303 Brit MkVII had a low density filler in front of a lead slug in a FMJ envelope. The result tumbled when hitting flesh instead of punching holes.

Mk_VII_.303_cartridge_diagram_Treatise_on_Ammunition_1915.jpg

BSW
 
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It is desired that the M27 have the capacity to be adapted to another round (such as 6.8mm) if desired.


Ammo situation for the M27 seems to be complicated regarding intended v. actual. For those interested in the progression of the issue you can read it here.
 
Wouldn't an M-1 or M1A-1 also work well during widespread street anarchy with overwhelmed police?

Shooting from a rooftop is different than fighting room to room. In the Middle East, I went through hallways that were so tight I had to turn sideways and sometimes take off gear to pass through. I was fortunate enough to be issued 2 rifles on deployment. If I knew I was going to be sitting in a field or rooftop doing overwatch, I grabbed the long barrel M16. Urban, climbing in and out of a MATV I went with my M4. It is all about knowing what you are doing and what you have to work with.
 
It's very interesting to find a few comments from actual combat veterans.

Just one more idea: for the civilian perspective, go find one of these Koreans for an opinion. You might recognize them from the LA Race Riots in '92.
Whatever they had, besides what looks like a Mini 14, I've never read that any of them needed to go inside a building to fight, or fire many warning shots-if any at all. The guns' visibility to savages in the streets seemed to be an effective deterrent.

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Wouldn't an M-1 or M1A-1 also work well during widespread street anarchy with overwhelmed police?
The mere sight of it held upwards in your sweating hands might Inspire somebody who makes terrible "life decisions" to immediately "turn his or her life around".
Race Riots? I was there in 92. NASCAR was nowhere to be seen!
 
Throwing out all the facts and tests, my gut tells me I’d rather use a .308 bullet than a .224 bullet to shoot people.
 
I prefer to not throw out my mind; nor the experiences of those who have been in combat and testified in this thread. My gut tells me to nuke 'em from orbit to be sure, but reality says the 5.56 is a better cartridge option in an environment where there are innocents, and an M4 is a better rifle option than an M16A1 or A2 if I have to move about. I'd have loved to have had an M4 doing MOUT training, but I was in during that period where the XM1771E2 was pulled from service and the M4 hadn't been rolled out yet.
Might have affected my decision to build an XM177E2 clone after I got out, and why I have a 10.5" AR pistol now.
 
Throwing out all the facts and tests, my gut tells me I’d rather use a .308 bullet than a .224 bullet to shoot people.

What's better: A .30 cal bullet with such great stability that it makes a .30 hole through a person or a .224 cal bullet that transfers all it's energy into a person by fragmenting and tumbling?

George Orwell was shot through the neck in the Spanish Civil War and went on to write Animal Farm and 1984.

The real world works differently than how people feel it should.

BSW
 
My summary of an account from a book about Hue:
There was a North Vietnam machine gun pinning down a group of Marines. Some of them actually brought a 106 mm recoilless rifle into position from inside a window. No one knew what would happen if you fired this thing from indoors. They cleared the room and then fired. Plaster came off the walls and debris fell around the Marines. After a few minutes it was noticed that the enemy machine gun was no longer firing....
I guess sometimes size and power does matter, even if it is heavy.
 
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