.350 Legend

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TonyAngel

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For a while now, I've had the thought of trying out 300 Blackout. Those that have them talk about the caliber like it's the end all, be all of AR platform compatible rounds.

While I was at the range today, I was talking to the owner as he was doing the paper work on a gun I just bought and asked him what he thought of the 300 Blackout. He really surprised me and says that he's seen many fads come and go and that the 300 BO was one of them. Then, he tells me to go over to the ammo shelves and grab a specific box and tells me to open it up and look at it.

I opened the box and what I see is what looks like a case the size of a 5.56, but straight walled. I look at the box and it says 145gr. WOW.

Anyone have any experience with this round? Pros? Cons?
 
.350 legend is a good round in my experience I’ve not had a chance to kill game with it yet but the 180 grain PowerPoint I loaded over 26.00 grains of cfe black went through 2 gallon jugs a 2x6 and shattered the rock on the back side

it is still to early to tell if it will make it I think it will here is why

1). Straight wall only states (why it was invented)

2). Good cheap FMJ options under $10 bucks a box

3). fits a multitude of action types ie semi auto and bolt

I feel that Winchester rushed it to market and screwed up the bullet diameter (it’s .355 instead of .358)

but I know for a fact it killed a good heavy IOWA 9 pointer last year for a good friend with the federal 150 grain ammo

in closing I enjoy mine :)
 
Nothing wrong with it from a technical standpoint.

It was a good idea to introduce it though. It will run in the most popular rifle in this country. (AR) Bear Creek has complete uppers for $240. So for less than the cost of a Mosin Nagant you can plant an upper on the AR you most likely already have and go hunting.

It has a guaranteed market in the straightwall states.
 
.350 legend is a good round in my experience I’ve not had a chance to kill game with it yet but the 180 grain PowerPoint I loaded over 26.00 grains of cfe black went through 2 gallon jugs a 2x6 and shattered the rock on the back side

it is still to early to tell if it will make it I think it will
here is why

1). Straight wall only states (why it was invented)

2). Good cheap FMJ options under $10 bucks a box

3). fits a multitude of action types ie semi auto and bolt

I feel that Winchester rushed it to market and screwed up the bullet diameter (it’s .355 instead of .358)

but I know for a fact it killed a good heavy IOWA 9 pointer last year for a good friend with the federal 150 grain ammo

in closing I enjoy mine :)

I never heard the reason Winchester went with a .355-.356 bullet diameter over the .358 bullet diameter ..
I was looking for a handy dandy bolt action carbine
and I went with the RAR in 7.62x39 ... but I made that choice before the 350 L came out ...
 
I don't mind that it's .355. I stock a lot more 9mm stuff than I do .357. In fact, the only .357 I keep on hand is LSWCs. I could see getting into 147gr loads. Now, I wonder how coated/plated bullets would do? Anyone?
 
Everything coming out of the muzzle of a SAAMI 357Mag is 0355."
See p 44: https://saami.org/wp-content/upload...FP-and-R-Approved-2015-12-14-Posting-Copy.pdf


Not a chance.

Rambling rant...

Most everything coming out of a 357 Mag is ~.357 groove diameter. Yes SAAMI specs for the bore and groove diameter for 9mm and 357 Mag is the same including the tolerances but those tolerance are HUGE compare to what most actual manufactures prints will have on them. 357 Mag and 9mm both are .346 bore, .355 grove with a +.004 tolerance per SAAMI. I guarantee that if you got your hands on most barrel manufacture's prints the tolerance on their bore and groove diameters would be +.001 not +.004 off of nominal. 357 Mag will most often be specified .357 +.001 and 9mm will be specified .355 +.001, but each manufacture will have their own version and tweeks they think works best. A few of the precision makers will hold even tighter tolerances, especially rifle barrel makers.

Also don't forget 357 Mag has a larger minimum bore area specification. Everyone seems to ignore this one but the bore area plays a bigger role in pressure issues than actual bore and groove diameters.

You also can't forget that 357 Mag bullet are specified .358 -.003 where 9mm is spec .3555 -.003. Again most manufacture hold this tolerance tighter, again usually -.001 instead of -.003. Most of us if we mic'ed a new box of bullets and found .003 variation in bullet diameters would be pretty pissed at the maker.

Yes 9mm and 357 Mag are very close to the same size and in most cases the bullets can be interchange with various level of retained accuracy. BUT 9mm and 357 mag are not the same.

As for 350 Legend there has been some confusion due to very early information released and early production ammunition measurements (made many believe it was a 9mm/.355) but if you ask Winchester they will tell you it is spec'ed to take .357 diameter bullets. I will retain my tin-foil hat theories for later.
 
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Not a chance.

Rambling rant...

Most everything coming out of a 357 Mag is ~.357 groove diameter. Yes SAAMI specs for the bore and groove diameter for 9mm and 357 Mag is the same including the tolerances but those tolerance are HUGE compare to most actual manufactures prints will have on them. 357 Mag and 9mm both are .346 bore, .355 grove with a +.004 tolerance per SAAMI. I guarantee that if you got your hands on most barrel manufacture prints the tolerance on their bore and groove diameters would be +.001 not +.004 off of nominal. 357 Mag will most often be specified .357 +.001 and 9mm will be specified .355 +.001, but each manufacture will have their own version and tweek they think works best. A few of the precision makers will hold even tighter tolerances, especially rifle makers.

Also don't forget 357 Mag has a larger minimum bore area specification. Everyone seems to ignore this one but the bore area plays a bigger role in pressure issues than actual bore and groove diameters.

You also can't forget that 357 Mag bullet are specified .358 -.003 where 9mm is spec .3555 -.003. Again most manufacture hold this tolerance tighter again usually -.001 instead of -.003. Most of us if we mic'ed a new box of bullet and found .003 variation in bullet diameters would be pretty pissed at the maker.

Yes 9mm and 357 Mag are very close to the same size and in most cases the bullets can be interchange with various level of retained accuracy. BUT 9mm and 357 mag are not the same.

As for 350 Legend there has been some confusion due to very early information released and early production ammunition measurements (made many believe it was a 9mm/.355) but if you ask Winchester they will tell you it is spec'ed to take .357 diameter bullets. I will retain my tin-foil hat theories for later.

Well, there ya go. Heavy bullet capable then?
 
Don't forget 357 Mag has a larger minimum bore area specification.
Uhhhh...no unless you think 0.002" (0.2%) matters downstream.

SAAMI Bore/Groove/Twist/Area
9mm LUG = 0.346/0.355/10/0.967insq
357 MAG = 0.346/0.355"/18/0.969insq
350 LEG = 0.346/0.355"/16/0.967insq

For all intents, purposes, effects and results... the same.
FWIW: I'm shooting .356 & .357 jacketed, (and .358 cast) w/o any problems whatsoever.


As to the Heavies....
350-Legend-SAECO-LEE-sm.jpg
.
And jacketed classics:
350-LEGEND-SPEER-180-FP-NORMA-200-sm.jpg
350-Legend-Speer180-FP-NORMA-200-sm.jpg

None of this info (or pics) are new.
It just seems to go round & round.
:)
 
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One thing these straight wall legal cartridges seem to be crapping the bed on are the chosen diameters and the consequential bullet choices because of those chosen diameters. In these instances, choosing handgun bullets instead of rifle bullets.

450 Bushmaster could have been so much greater if they retained the original .458 bullet design. 350 Legend is designed some years later and instead of using .358 bullets it uses .355/.357.
 
One thing these straight wall legal cartridges seem to be crapping the bed on are the chosen diameters and the consequential bullet choices because of those chosen diameters. In these instances, choosing handgun bullets instead of rifle bullets.

450 Bushmaster could have been so much greater if they retained the original .458 bullet design. 350 Legend is designed some years later and instead of using .358 bullets it uses .355/.357.

What is wrong with .452 diameter bullets and 450 Bushmaster? There is a larger selection of .452 bullets than .458 at most re-sellers and with 454 Casull and 460 S&W a larger portion of those bullets are ready for 450 Bushmaster velocities. Not to mention the large and growing selection of bullets specifically designed for 450 Bushmaster. And cheap 45 ACP bullet make great plinkers.
 
What is wrong with .452 diameter bullets and 450 Bushmaster? There is a larger selection of .452 bullets than .458 at most re-sellers and with 454 Casull and 460 S&W a larger portion of those bullets are ready for 450 Bushmaster velocities. Not to mention the large and growing selection of bullets specifically designed for 450 Bushmaster. And cheap 45 ACP bullet make great plinkers.
This. I've grown quite fond of the 450 Bushmaster in the time that I've owned / reloaded for one. I'm not yet a fanboi, but I'm probably getting there pretty fast. It's super easy to reload, makes big holes, and the trajectory is on par with the 358 Win or 300AAC supersonics. I can load up 230gr hardball over LilGun and have a solidly MOA shooter for range work, or load up the 460-class bullets and get respectable performance on game.

I just screwed together a Savage 10 in 450 Bushmaster yesterday, in fact - it's likely to replace my 358 Winchester as the 'walkabout rifle for Texas scrub'.
 
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AR Platform in what (which) cartridge ?
If the Legend, everything you see aove/from me is an AR (either a Durkin Tactical or CMMG* upper)

*
 
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I'm looking for info for the AR platform.
Understood - the 450 Bushmaster is an AR-compatible round, just like the 350 Legend. This is what got me started:

https://ruger.com/products/ar556MPR/specSheets/8522.html

1.jpg


Local shop offered it to me used but unfired for $525, and I couldn't say no. It's a hoot. I swapped the Ruger two-stage trigger for a CMC single-stage and threw away the magazine in favor of a DuraMag, and could not be happier.
 
Understood - the 450 Bushmaster is an AR-compatible round, just like the 350 Legend. This is what got me started:

https://ruger.com/products/ar556MPR/specSheets/8522.html

View attachment 906105


Local shop offered it to me used but unfired for $525, and I couldn't say no. It's a hoot. I swapped the Ruger two-stage trigger for a CMC single-stage and threw away the magazine in favor of a DuraMag, and could not be happier.

I'm aware of the .450BM, I just became aware of the .350L today. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really need to subscribe to a gun mag or two. I'm so behind the times in so many ways.

Anyway, I've been down the big bore road. I got into .50 Beowulf back when it was first released. It was a lot of fun. Killed a BUNCH of Eotechs with that thing. What I was specifically looking for is an alternative to .300BO.

Since I've been reading up on the .350L, it's turning out to be not what I expected. I had it in my head that the magazines and brass for 5.56 would accommodate the round, but I am finding that I was mistaken. Although I'm still interested in the .350L, I am falling back into the way of the .300BO. Need to do more research now.
 
I'm aware of the .450BM, I just became aware of the .350L today. I've said it before and I'll say it again, I really need to subscribe to a gun mag or two. I'm so behind the times in so many ways.

Anyway, I've been down the big bore road. I got into .50 Beowulf back when it was first released. It was a lot of fun. Killed a BUNCH of Eotechs with that thing. What I was specifically looking for is an alternative to .300BO.

Since I've been reading up on the .350L, it's turning out to be not what I expected. I had it in my head that the magazines and brass for 5.56 would accommodate the round, but I am finding that I was mistaken. Although I'm still interested in the .350L, I am falling back into the way of the .300BO. Need to do more research now.

Do you have a suppressor yet? Are you thinking about getting a suppressor? I think the 350 Legend probably has a greater range of capability than 300 BO as long as your not looking to stretch the range. Especially if your looking for good sub-sonic performance too. Had I not already had my 300 BO's, 30-cal suppressor and a 450 Bushmaster I would be been very tempted by 350 Legend. I think it could cover most of the things I do with those two cartridges just using the 350 Legend and a good 9mm/357 Mag suppressor.
 
450 Bushmaster could have been so much greater if they retained the original .458 bullet design. 350 Legend is designed some years later and instead of using .358 bullets it uses .355/.357.

450 Bushmaster came directly from the "45 Professional", and the guy who designed that, Tim LeGendre, specified .451" bullets. And was a fan of the Hornady 230 gr FMJ-FP. So it was not really a Bushmaster/Hornady design, it is following the specifications of a guy who was not selling ammo, so I don't have reason to be suspicious of the choice.

But 350 Legend is a scratch made Winchester design, new case and all. So there I am suspicious why their factory ammo uses .355" bullets. Although they advertise ".357". It seems like an odd choice, no? And it actually caused them some issues for a short time! And as they advertise not being able to form brass from 223, it makes me suspect they just wanted to sell more ammo.
 
Do you have a suppressor yet? Are you thinking about getting a suppressor? I think the 350 Legend probably has a greater range of capability than 300 BO as long as your not looking to stretch the range. Especially if your looking for good sub-sonic performance too. Had I not already had my 300 BO's, 30-cal suppressor and a 450 Bushmaster I would be been very tempted by 350 Legend. I think it could cover most of the things I do with those two cartridges just using the 350 Legend and a good 9mm/357 Mag suppressor.

I don't have a suppressor yet. I went into a LGS a few days ago because they are the local authority on suppressors and have several on display. I know I'm going to get one. I need to make up my mind on which one.

I'm still tossing which way to go around in my head. In terms of ammo cost, blasting ammo for the .350L isn't cheap, but it isn't outrageous either at around 50 cents a round. I've found a few good deals on barrels made by good people too. With either, I'm gonna have to reload for it and 350L can't be formed, but I'm not really crazy about the idea of forming 1000 .223 cases either. One thing that is standing out in my mind right now is how much gun crap I've accumulated. Honestly, I'm not a gun guy. I'm a shooter.

I'd be willing to have another upper in another caliber and even feed it, but man, with the 350L I'd have to get mags too. With the 300BO, I could use the tons of AR mags that I have.

I've gotta give it some thought. I'm just going a little stir crazy with this corona stuff and have all sorts of stuff running through my mind. Then tonight, my dad asks me about a .22 AR. I showed him the M&P, but, LOL, he doesn't like it. He wants one that looks and is as small as the 10.5" I just built; so, it looks like my next project has been laid out for me.
 
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But 350 Legend is a scratch made Winchester design, new case and all. So there I am suspicious why their factory ammo uses .355" bullets. Although they advertise ".357". It seems like an odd choice, no? And it actually caused them some issues for a short time! And as they advertise not being able to form brass from 223, it makes me suspect they just wanted to sell more ammo


This is my thoughts as well they got greedy and wanted to sell more ammo than components
 
* Also I’ve found that federal crimps their 350 legend primers

Winchester has not done this
 
This is my thoughts as well they got greedy and wanted to sell more ammo than components
There are two decent reasons to do what they did with the case beyond sticking it to those that like to convert AR brass to other cartridges and making more money.

By making it a rebated cartridge they get a bit more case taper and case volume while still retaining the 556 case head for common bolt compatibility. A .357 diameter bullet in a 556 case with the neck blown out in nearly straight wall, as in a completely prismatic cylinder. A little more taper helps with feeding and extractions. By making the case rebated they also get a little more case volume and that helps especially with the heavier bullets.
 
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