How many DIFFERENT frames has S&W marketed???

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WestKentucky

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I am arguing with a coworker who (is wrong) and says that S&W has only offer about 6 different frames. Baloney

Looking at variations in frame design, size, material, and small features, how many guns would it take to have one of each frame. Coincidentally I think this is possibly my lifetime goal... one of each, and if I ever achieve it then perhaps I will try for nicer specimens in some flavors.

Right off the top of my head...
Tip ups in various sizes and renditions
DA Top breaks in at least 2 primary sizes each with 2 variants for hammered and hammerless,
SA top breaks
Ladysmith
i
Improved i
J blued
J stainless
J scandium
J shrouded hammer
J hammerless
K standard stainless
K standard blued
K heavy blued (top contour difference)
K heavy stainless
L blued
L stainless
N stainless
N blued
X
J long window (357)

and after all that I didn’t even think about fixed vs adjustable sights.
 
Smith 296 is an oddball alloy K frame with concealed hammer like a centennial.

There is also a standard alloy K frame like the model 12
 
OK, as with so many arguments, we are disagreeing on definitions. In this case, it is "what constitutes an S&W frame"? I don't know the answer better than anyone else. I happen to agree with Texas10mm myself, because I think of the frames as a way of categorizing S&W revolvers by size, not as a way of ordering parts or replacement frames.

I have to say I don't understand why WestKentucky doesn't include the ordinary aluminum alloy frames as separate items on his list, if he is going to count scandium and stainless steel separately. Or why the Model 547 K-frame, with its unique extractor and moving cartridge support in the breech face, is not included. Or the Triple Lock, for that matter.

I guess what I mean is if you consider the K frame heavy blued a different frame, where do you stop? One you call a variation that minor a new frame, there are a vast number of different frames, so where do you draw the line?
 
K frames with a shrouded ejection rod, like the model 19 have a slightly different shaped frame than non shrouded like the model 10.
 
In the earliest days: No. 1, No. 1 1/2, No. 2, and No. 3, all single action. No.1 was .22 rimfire, No. 1 1/2 a five shot .32 R.F., and the No. 2 a six shot .32 R.F. The No. 3 was made in several calibers and did include the Schofield and the Russian models.

Bob Wright
 
"I am arguing with a coworker who (is wrong) and says that S&W has only offer about 6 different frames."

Frame is one thing, what it's made from is another. Saying a blued K frame is a different frame than a stainless K frame doesn't make sense to me.

Your friend may be off in the number count, but I tend to agree with him.
 
Are you talking VARIATIONS of frames or just frames?

Modern times I consider the

I, J, K, L, N, X, Z

You missed one. The M frame, which was S&W's first .22 Hand Ejector. It was released after they had introduced the I frame (.32) and the K frame (.38). It is the smallest Hand Ejector frame ever made by S&W. These were produced from 1902 - 1921 in three different variations.
 
You missed one. The M frame, which was S&W's first .22 Hand Ejector. It was released after they had introduced the I frame (.32) and the K frame (.38). It is the smallest Hand Ejector frame ever made by S&W. These were produced from 1902 - 1921 in three different variations.

Personally, I agree with you, kscharlie, but a person could argue that 1921 is not modern times. Or maybe that it is now, but won't be next year, when it will be 100 years ago. :)
 
You missed one. The M frame, which was S&W's first .22 Hand Ejector. It was released after they had introduced the I frame (.32) and the K frame (.38). It is the smallest Hand Ejector frame ever made by S&W. These were produced from 1902 - 1921 in three different variations.

Thanks, I'd not heard of the M frame.
 
Personally, I agree with you, kscharlie, but a person could argue that 1921 is not modern times. Or maybe that it is now, but won't be next year, when it will be 100 years ago. :)

I understand what you are saying. However, the S&W Hand Ejector (swing out cylinder), created in the late 1890s, is still the same basic design of the newest one that came off the production line today. Granted, the metallurgy has changed over time, and many minor modifications have occurred since then. But it still remains basically the same today as it was 130+ years ago. Additionally, every single Hand Ejector made was designed around the use of smokeless powder. Not much has really changed since then. To my way of thinking, anything with a swing out cylinder that shoots smokeless powder cartridges is modern. It may be old, but it's still modern.

WestKentucky, yes, the M frame was the original Ladysmith. S&W named it the .22 Hand Ejector. It was given the nickname of Ladysmith because it was so tiny it could easily fit into a Lady's purse. But I don't believe that S&W ever actually referred to it as such.
 
I am arguing with a coworker who (is wrong) and says that S&W has only offer about 6 different frames. Baloney

Let's be practical here. Listing umpteen different variations of one frame size is kind of silly. That would make an unending list. To me, a K frame is a K frame is a K frame, no matter what it is made of, without regard to minor variations in dimensions. Same with any of the other sizes.

Let's jump into the wayback machine for a moment.

On the left in this photo are the three sizes of the early S&W Tip Up revolvers. So named because the barrel rotated up to load and unload them. A very simple design, the first revolvers S&W produced, starting in 1857. From the bottom up, the three Tip Ups are a Model Number One, a Model Number One and a Half, and a Model Number Two. The Model Number One was a seven shot revolver, that fired what we would call today the 22 Short cartridge. This particular one is the oldest revolver in my collection, a No. One Tip Up 1st Issue, 5th Type. it shipped in 1859. We will jump up to the biggest one for a moment. This is a Model Number 2 Old Model, also known as the No. 2 Old Army. This was the biggest of the Tip Ups. Manufactured from 1861 until 1864 these were a five shot 32 Rimfire revolver. This one shipped in 1862. The reason I jumped from the No. 1 to the No. 2 is the No. 1 1/2 came after both of them. Ordinarily one would think that the progression would go 1, 1 1/2, 2. But what happened was after the Civil War a great many towns and cities started passing legislation against open carry. The No. 2 was not a particularly large revolver, you can see how it compared to the others in this photo, but something a little bit smaller was desired. So the numbers 1 and 2 already having been taken, S&W did the next logical thing and called this 'mid-sized' revolver the No. 1 1/2. The 1 1/2 was also chambered for a 32 Rimfire cartridge, but because the frame and cylinder were a little bit smaller, it was a five shot revolver, instead of a six shooter like the Model 2. Incidentally, the Tip Ups were made by S&W under license from Rollin White and his patent for revolvers with cylinders bored through to accept cartridges. This patent was in effect until 1869, and was the reason all the other revolver companies in the US were still supplying Cap & Ball revolvers to the Army during the Civil War. S&W had an exclusive arrangement with White and the patent was fiercely guarded against patent infringements. The 32 Rimfire No. 2 was not as powerful as the big 44 Cap & Ball revolvers being manufactured by Colt and Remington, but it was the most powerful cartridge revolver on the market at the time. Many Union officers bought Model 2s with their own funds. S&W experimented with a 44 caliber Tip Up, but the design was not strong enough for a cartridge that large.

OK, now let's talk about Top Breaks. Al the other revolvers in this photo are Top Breaks. So named because to empty them and reload, they broke at the top, and the barrel rotated down. A much more sophisticated design than the Tip Ups, they featured automatic ejection of spent brass when the barrel was rotated down. As an aside, S&W was hard at work on a new design because they thought all the other revolver manufacturers would jump onto the cartridge revolver bandwagon when the White patent expired. As it turned out, S&W was ahead of the game, they had their big 44 caliber American Model in production when the patent expired, Colt did not introduce the Single Action Army until 1873, and it was not as sophisticated a design as the S&W design. You had to manually eject spent brass from the Colt one chamber at a time, and you had to reload one chamber at a time too.

Except for the large Number Three revolvers, collectors seldom classify the smaller sizes by frame number or size, because there was a huge variety of them. The smaller revolvers pictured are just a smattering of the immense variations in what might be called the Number 1 1/2 and Number 2 sizes. Notice I have lined up the smaller revolvers with the Tip Ups of the same general frame sizes. There were no #1 sized Top Breaks made. At the top center of the photo is a Schofield, chambered for the 45 Schofield cartridge. One of five different variations on the Number 3 size. Directly below the Schofield is a 38 Single Action, also known as the Baby Russian, a five shooter chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge (not 38 Special that would not show up until 1899). Below the Baby Russian is a 32 Single Action, chambered for the 32 S&W cartridge. (Not 32 S&W Long, that would not show up until 1896) Notice these two revolvers are single action, and they have spur triggers, no trigger guard.

Moving to the right is a 44 Double Action. The only large frame double action Top Break revolver that S&W made. This one is chambered for the 44 Russian cartridge, and it is a six shooter. Notice the similarity in over all shape of the two smaller revolvers to the 44 Double Action. These often get mistaken for the 44 Double Action if no comparison of size is available. Directly below the 44 DA is a 38 Double Action, chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge. It is a five shooter. And below that is a 32 Double Action, chambered for the 32 S&W cartridge.

I want to emphasize again that there were myriad variations on the #2 and #1 1/2 sized Top Breaks, single action, double action, spur triggers, full trigger guards, hammerless with grip safties, and the Perfected Models to name what come readily to mind.

pnaFcMVTj.jpg




Just for giggles, here are the five separate models built on the #3 sized frame. All are built on the #3 sized frame, but all are different in shape, notice the differences. Starting at the upper left is the American Model (actually this is a Russian 1st Model, but it is identical in appearance to the American Model). Upper right is a 2nd Model Russian with its characteristic spur on the trigger guard and the big point hump at the rear of the grip. In the center is the 44 DA. Lower left is a Schofield, and lower right is a New Model Number Three, the best design of them all.

pmdEkEjQj.jpg




OK, let's move into the modern era. These are five of the sevan standard frame sizes of the modern, Hand Ejector era. Working down from the upper right, an N frame 44 Hand Ejector 1st Model also known as the Triple Lock, chambered for 44 Special. This large frame was typically chambered in 44 and 45 calibers, and when the 357 Magnum came along in 1935 this was the size of the first revolvers chambered for it. Next down is a typical K frame. This one happens to be a 32-20 Hand Ejector, but this is the size frame that was originally developed n 1899 for the 38 Special cartridge. The perfect size for a 38 Special six shooter. A little bit out of sequence below the K frame is a typical J frame, this one happens to be a Model 36 (Chiefs Special) 38 Special five shooter. The cylinder is not large enough for six 38 caliber cartridges. Jumping up to the upper left is a typical I frame, the predecessor of the J frame. This one is a six shot 38 Regulation Police, chambered for the 38 S&W cartridge. Like the J frame, the cylinder is not large enough in diameter for six 38 caliber cartridges, and it is not long enough for a 38 Special. I frames first appeared in 1896 along with the brand new 32 S&W Long cartridge. Various I frames were chambered for 22LR, 32 S&W Long, and 38 S&W cartridges. Finally at the lower right is a tiny M frame Ladysmith. Unlike the other revolvers recently made bearing the Lady Smith name, the real Ladysmith was a seven shot revolver chambered for the 22 Long cartridge. Not 22 LR.

Not pictured: a gigantic X frame revolver. Simply because I have no interest in owning one. Developed for cartridges such as the 500 S&W Magnum around 2003 and the absolutely ridiculous Z frame Governor series. This is my post and I am making a little bit of editorial comment.

pnfU3Fdij.jpg




Hope this clears up some questions about the various frame sizes S&W has manufactured over the last 163 years, and I hope the photos showing the comparison of sizes is helpful.
 
This is a tangent to this thread: One thing I have never understood about S&W top-breaks is the big gap between the two larger frame sizes. Basically, in top-breaks, S&W made a tiny size, a small size, and a large size, There was no medium size-top break (say a 6 shot 38 S&W or Long Colt, or a 5 shot 44 Webley or Russian). Yet when S&W introduced a medium sized swing-out, the K-frame, it became the foundation of their line. Did S&W (or one of the other American top-break manufacturers) miss a sizable trick here, or was the market wrong for a medium sized gun until about 1900?
 
This is a tangent to this thread: One thing I have never understood about S&W top-breaks is the big gap between the two larger frame sizes. Basically, in top-breaks, S&W made a tiny size, a small size, and a large size, There was no medium size-top break (say a 6 shot 38 S&W or Long Colt, or a 5 shot 44 Webley or Russian). Yet when S&W introduced a medium sized swing-out, the K-frame, it became the foundation of their line. Did S&W (or one of the other American top-break manufacturers) miss a sizable trick here, or was the market wrong for a medium sized gun until about 1900?

I've wondered that too. I assume the small frames were considered pocket guns and the large frame guns were meant more for soldiers and such. Kind of concealed carry versus open carry option. Whereas a medium sized gun only get you 1 extra round of .32 or .38 and none of the 44 or .45 caliber options fits in a medium sized frame.
 
I think Driftwood Johnson's thread number 20 answers any questions on S&W frame sizes.

It does not matter the material that the frame is made from, in my opinion.
 
I've wondered that too. I assume the small frames were considered pocket guns and the large frame guns were meant more for soldiers and such. Kind of concealed carry versus open carry option. Whereas a medium sized gun only get you 1 extra round of .32 or .38 and none of the 44 or .45 caliber options fits in a medium sized frame.

Yes, that may be the answer, reddog81. Perhaps S&W did not think there were any cartridges worth making a 5 or 6 shot revolver for in between 38 S&W and 44 Russian.

H&R and Iver Johnson made 5 shot solid-frame, pull-pin revolvers for 44 Webley, which is a cartridge with about 10% more kinetic energy than standard velocity 38 Special. (There were two different factory loads for 44 Webely, so this varies a bit.) But they never offered these guns in a 6 shot 38 S&W version, nor did they make a top-break revolver for it. Maybe S&W felt it was not a round worth bothering with, since it might only cause confusion with their 44 Russian / 44 American guns.

And making a gun in 41 Short or Long Colt would not have appealed to them either, I suppose. Yes, quite possibly the gap was in the ammunition of the time.
 
This is a tangent to this thread: One thing I have never understood about S&W top-breaks is the big gap between the two larger frame sizes. Basically, in top-breaks, S&W made a tiny size, a small size, and a large size, There was no medium size-top break (say a 6 shot 38 S&W or Long Colt, or a 5 shot 44 Webley or Russian). Yet when S&W introduced a medium sized swing-out, the K-frame, it became the foundation of their line. Did S&W (or one of the other American top-break manufacturers) miss a sizable trick here, or was the market wrong for a medium sized gun until about 1900?


I've wondered that too. I assume the small frames were considered pocket guns and the large frame guns were meant more for soldiers and such. Kind of concealed carry versus open carry option. Whereas a medium sized gun only get you 1 extra round of .32 or .38 and none of the 44 or .45 caliber options fits in a medium sized frame.


Howdy Again

When the No. 1 1/2 Tip Up was introduced in 1865, it was clearly a downsized version of the No. 2 Old Army. The same 32 rimfire cartridge, but only five shots instead of six. As I said earlier, I believe this model came out in response to the growing trend for cities and towns to outlaw open carry of revolvers. So the smaller No. 1 1/2 could be easily hidden in a pocket and no one would be the wiser. Clearly, a pocket revolver.

The very first Top Break revolver S&W introduced was the big American model in 1869. The pocket models came later. The American was a great big 44 caliber revolver, basically the same size as a Colt. I photoshopped these two revolvers together in this photo. Not an American, but a Schofield, with a Colt Single Action Army above it. This revolver was basically the same size as a Colt, and all the big #3 revolvers were the same size. Clearly a holster pistol. They could be hidden in a coat pocket if the pocket was big, but clearly more of a belt revolver. The Army ordered 1000 of the American model, this was the first cartridge revolver the Army ordered. There is some evidence that some were present at the Battle of the Little Bighorn in 1876.

pnwD3MD5j.jpg




I never thought about it before, but yes, it appears that when S&W brought out their Top Break pocket models, there was nothing in between the five shot 38s and the big six shot 44s. I don't know why, but that is what they did.



In 1896 S&W introduced their first solid frame revolver with a cylinder that swung out to the side. This was the Model of 1896 and it was a six shot 32 caliber revolver, built on what became known as the I frame. Barrel lengths were 3 1/4", 4 1/4" and 6". This one has a 4 1/4" barrel and it pretty well fits the bill of a pocket revolver.

pn8KyMauj.jpg




This one has a 6" barrel and would not fit into a pocket as easily.

po5DxIXFj.jpg




Most municipalities did not issue sidearms to police officers, the officers supplied their own and paid for them themselves. When Theodore Roosevelt became President of the New York City Board of Police Commissioners he standardized the NY officers' sidearms by ordering 4,500 32 caliber Colt New Police revolvers in 1896. This was the first time a major city supplied sidearms to their officers. These revolvers were manufactured with 2 1/2", 4" or 6" barrels. I don't know this for a fact, but I would not be surprised if the revolvers Roosevelt ordered came with 4" barrels. A 4" Colt New Police would be an excellent pocket revolver, easily concealed in an officer's over coat.

Many cities were still using 32 caliber revolvers at this time. This is a pair of S&W Regulation Police revolvers from the mid 1920s. The one at the top is a five shot 38 (38S&W, not 38 Special) the one at the bottom is a six shot 32. With their 4" barrels they make very nice pocket pistols.

pnTuTLDvj.jpg




A 32 Colt Police Positive is pretty much the same size as a 32 Regulation Police.

poxgF0Q3j.jpg




When S&W introduced their first side swing 38 caliber revolver in 1899 it was called the 38 Military and Police. Later known as the 38 Military and Police 1st Model, or Model of 1899 Army-Navy Revolver, it was clearly aimed at the military and law enforcement markets. This one has a 6 1/2" barrel, clearly not a pocket pistol.

plWk2Oidj.jpg




So that's about all I can tell you about S&W Top Break Pocket Pistols. Except to tell you there were lots and lots of different designs. In addition to the ones I have all ready shown, there were the Safety Hammerless models. This one is a five shot 38S&W revolver.

pmRJLRgLj.jpg




This one is much smaller, a five shot 32 S&W revolver. (32 S&W , not 32 S&W Long)

pmyDmOxTj.jpg




This little 32 Safety Hammerless with a 2" barrel is known as a Bicycle Revolver. It left the factory in 1908, when bicycle riding was becoming a craze in cities all over the country. City Swells kept these in their pockets to ward off ruffians who might accost Daisy on their bicycle built for two.

pl4IjBYuj.jpg




And last of all, there were the five shot 38 Double Action Perfected revolvers. These required the thumbpiece to be pushed forward AND the top latch to be lifted simultaneously in order to open them to reload.

pnBDmvQAj.jpg
 
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