30-30 sizing confusion

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Hey all,
I'm having some trouble here, I'm not an experienced bottlenecked cartridge reloader- I pretty much stick to straight walled cartridges. I have loaded for my 30-30 before and I could easily repeat the loading again but I'm trying to do this right and only move the shoulder minimally . all bottlenecked cartridge reloading I've done I simply full length size and don't have any trouble. I realize the 30 wcf headspace on the rim so it's less crucial but I'm going for case life and best possible accuracy. I selected 2 cases that had been fired from the same rifle, same brand case (federal) that were identical length . measured after what I would call full length resizing and the sized cartridge actually was longer as measured from the shoulder to the head. I don't understand, the sized brass slides right in to a cartridge gauge so I'm not concerned it's actually grown, I could trim it if required but

the length is fine as measured. The only thing I can think is when the body is sized it's stretching it some. Any tips , again I'm just looking best case life and avoid oversizing - these will only be fired from one rifle.

Unsized


20200406_155050.jpg


After sizing
20200406_155032.jpg

Left- unsized. Right - sized.
20200406_154937.jpg

20200406_155308.jpg
20200406_155511_Burst01.jpg

Any advice would be appreciated . thanks!
 
You only need to move the shoulder back 0.002"-0.003" from the fired state. You moved it back 0.020" which a receipt for trouble, and short life span.

Back off your sizing die 1 turn and start over, your over sizing. Move only 1/8" turn at a time till you see the shoulder get moved back. Then adj from there.
 
As the body is squeezed down the shoulder gets pushed forward.

Put away the case gauge and use your chamber as the gauge.

Size it, see if it will chamber easily. If not, screw the die in an 1/8th turn. Size again.

Keep repeating until the case chambers easily, tighten the lock ring in place and you're done.
 
You only need to move the shoulder back 0.002"-0.003" from the fired state. You moved it back 0.020" which a receipt for trouble, and short life span.

Back off your sizing die 1 turn and start over, your over sizing. Move only 1/8" turn at a time till you see the shoulder get moved back. Then adj from there.
It moved forward .020" , that's the confusion. It isn't shorter, it's longer. I know I want to push the shoulder minimally , that's what I'm attempting . otherwise I'd just full size them and go.
 
As the body is squeezed down the shoulder gets pushed forward.

Put away the case gauge and use your chamber as the gauge.

Size it, see if it will chamber easily. If not, screw the die in an 1/8th turn. Size again.

Keep repeating until the case chambers easily, tighten the lock ring in place and you're done.
I thought about that but I wanted to see more clearly what I'm doing. Just chambering or easily chambering VS way over resizing is what I'm trying to avoid and I think by just sizing enough to close the bolt won't be just the .002" I'm looking for. This is a practice in theory as well as practice and I'm doing my best to understand, it's just not quite adding up to me.
 
Since most all 30-30 rounds are crimped, you will need to trim after the first sizing. It's possible that the neck is too long hanging up in the Hornady's comparator. Your rifle chamber is the best gauge, since most 30-30 are on the loose side.
 
You only need to move the shoulder back 0.002"-0.003" from the fired state. You moved it back 0.020" which a receipt for trouble, and short life span.

Am I reading this wrong or did I miss-intemperate what the OP said.

measured after what I would call full length resizing and the sized cartridge actually was longer as measured from the shoulder to the head.
.020 longer.

I'm confused. But it's been a really long day at work.

OP, what kind of 30-30 rifle do you have, a bolt or lever action?

I used to try to headspace my old 30-30 lever action rifles off the shoulder of the case instead of the rim, but most of the chambers (Winchesters) were bored to deep to do that. I could never blow the shoulder out far enough to make it work in anything but my old '52 Marlin, so I would only resize case length to where the die would just touched the shoulder and left it go at that.

With a bolt action 30-30 you should be able to actually match the rim headspace to the shoulder headspace, as far as shoulder length goes, to make you brass last about forever.
 
Keep screwing the die in 1/8th turns and the shoulder will eventually start getting pushed down.

Use the comparator to bump it back ~.002" from the original fire formed measurement.
 
I understand in theory , I want the shoulder to be just short of the chamber. I'm having a tough time figuring out why the shoulder moves forward though. I would think this would prevent chambering but it doesn't . drops into the cartridge gauge and the rifle chamber easily- but it is fully sized so im not suprised - I've done this before but just full length sized and loaded, no issue doing that but like I said I'd like longest brass life possible. I'm just wanting to load correctly this time instead of just doing a generic job.
Keep screwing the die in 1/8th turns and the shoulder will eventually start getting pushed down.

Use the comparator to bump it back ~.002" from the original fire formed measurement.
That's what I'm not getting, a full resize should be pushing the shoulder back, not forward. So I can't really go .002" back- I think it will only go forward.
 
Marlins have generous 30-30 chambers from my experience. I have had up to .015” head space measured from a fired and unsized case on a certain rifle that I re-head spaced to something more acceptable.

Ideally, you need your bolt nearly firmly against the cartridge base planting the rim of the case into the rim recess cut into the chamber. (Minus appropriate head space). Then you want the shoulder nearly firmly against the shoulder cut in the chamber (minus the .002-.003” as was mentioned earlier. This gives the cartridge very little room to move around in the chamber when it is in full battery.

I cant explain why your getting an increase on the comparator after bumping the shoulder back but I encourage you to use your rifles chamber as your gauge as has been suggested earlier.
 
Well since you said they still chamber after the shoulder get's pushed forward .020" I'm at a loss. That should not be possible.

Huge chamber or chamber to die dimensions mismatch?

Is this a transitioning to Remlin product?
 
Marlins have generous 30-30 chambers from my experience. I have had up to .015” head space measured from a fired and unsized case.

I cant explain why your getting an increase on the comparator after bumping the shoulder back but I encourage you to use your rifles chamber as your gauge as has been suggested earlier.
I can use the chamber as a gauge, but what I'm looking for us a repeatable and consistent sizing . I'm not going for tightest groups ever (obviously it's a lever gun and will be what it is) . won't the leverage of the action push the case in even if it's a hair long? Maybe the shoulder still isn't blown far enough forward as @tightgroup tiger mentioned?
 
Well since you said they still chamber after the shoulder get's pushed forward .020" I'm at a loss. That should not be possible.

Huge chamber or poor chamber vs die dimensions?

Is this a trasitioning to Remlin product?
No, still firmly in JM manufacture by a little bit, best I know.
 
won't the leverage of the action push the case in even if it's a hair long? Maybe the shoulder still isn't blown far enough forward as @tightroup tiger mentioned?

You shouldn't be able to. Lever actions don't have the camming power of a bolt action.

It is possible the shoulder is not blown far enough forward yet. If that is the case, maybe you need to load and fire them again.
 
You shouldn't be able to. Lever actions don't have the camming power of a bolt action.

It is possible the shoulder is not blown far enough forward yet. If that is the case, maybe you need to load and fire them again.
So maybe just neck size and shoot them again? I know a lot of guys do that. I'll try to just neck size one and see if it chambers.

I swear guys, I'm not normally this clueless. Just trying to understand instead of just do.
 
I'd load that one that lengthened .020" but still chambers, fire it, then compare it again.

Sounds like the goat nailed it and they aren't blowing out all the way.
 
won't the leverage of the action push the case in even if it's a hair long? Maybe the shoulder still isn't blown far enough forward as @tightgroup tiger mentioned?

It will push it in the chamber until the rim stops the forward movement. The shoulder isn't touching anything yet. Trying to get the shoulder to touch is what is almost impossible.

I doubt the shoulder is blown out to the chamber. Maximum pressure is only 42K. Common problem with 30-30s. They weren't originally designed to headspace off the shoulder anyways. It was always the rim. The guns weren't exactly precision rifles.

As the body is squeezed down the shoulder gets pushed forward.

I think this is correct, and the resizing die isn't screwed down far enough to push the should back. So it isn't against the shoulder of the case and the die sizing the body is squeezing the case longer.

If your chamber is, lets say generous, the diameter is larger in the fired rounds, and when you resize it back to original the brass has to have somewhere to go, so it grows in length. Die not screwed down far enough to push the shoulder back.

If the case chambers this way, leave them like that. It's better for the brass. If you force the brass in the resizing die far enough to push the shoulder back the extra material will end up in the neck, then you'll have to trim them and they will just keep stretching back out when fired again and over working the brass.
 
I'd load that one that lengthened .020" but still chambers, fire it, then compare it again.

Sounds like the goat nailed it and they aren't blowing out all the way.
This makes sense now. Checking the fired cases, none of them are the same from head to datum.

So I actually should full length size, let them do the weird stretch and fire again then recheck?

I'm doing a load work up, that's why I'm trying to be as consistent as possible. Got a pound of leverevolition powder and some 160 grain flextips.
Or maybe no resizing ? The fired cases don't drop into my case gauge , when put in the rifle they don't drop in freely but hang about 1/4" out and I feel no resistance closing the lever.
 
I would still resize them, and try to bump back the shoulder a thousands or so just to keep the volume of the cases as close to the same as you can.

You can't do anything about headspacing on the shoulder if your cases don't reach the shoulder. It is what it is. A 30-30 lever action.

Sounds like the goat nailed it and they aren't blowing out all the way.

Read post 7
 
I would still resize them, and try to bump back the shoulder a thousands or so just to keep the volume of the cases as close to the same as you can.
I don't think I'll be able to push the shoulder at all, as I think I'm just pushing it out as I size the body. I give you rifle guys credit, this can get a bit tricky for a guy who hasn't done much of this.
 
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