Why did the 7.62x51 cartridge come out of the WW2 era?

Status
Not open for further replies.
The 300 Savage, 308 and 30-06 all use the same shell holder. A 30-06 load during WW-1 had a 150 gr bullet at 2700 fps. The 300 Savage successfully matched that and when introduced would do the same thing as 30-06. By WW-2 a 150 gr 30-06 load was up to 2800 fps. I may be mistaken, but I believe that when WW-2 started that was the standard load. At some point a heavier bullet was designed for machine guns and eventually used in rifles too. But I'm not 100% sure I have that exactly right.

When the 308 was developed it was based on a modified 300 Savage case rather than a shortened 30-06 case. But even that is splitting hairs since the 300 Savage is still based on 30-06.

As a service rifle cartridge the 308 and the rifles designed for it was a failed experiment. Not that they aren't great rifles, but they just didn't meet the need the military was looking for. What they wanted was a smaller lighter rifle capable of holding a lot more ammo and still controllable in full auto fire. What they got was a redesigned Garand with a detachable magazine firing a cartridge nominally smaller, but with the same recoil.

The 308 has proven to be a great round and filled a niche as close to mid-range sniper round and as a light machine gun round. The M14 is still seeing limited uses in the military for specialized roles. But while the 5.56 has it's issues, I still maintain that as a general issue option we are better off with it than we would have been had we stayed with 308 or any of the larger cartridges.

The US Army wanted to replace the hodgepodge of small arms it won WWII with: M3 greasegun, M1 carbine, M1 Garand, and the BAR. Army Ordnance said 'Behold our new rifle! It shall replace all of those weapons and we'll be able to make it on the Garand tooling so it'll be cheap too!'

What the Army got was a service rifle so bad that it was replaced in the middle of a war by an untried substitute that Army Ordnance had earlier rejected.

And that's how we went from 'Only 762NATO is powerful enough!' to introducing 556NATO as a 2nd standard NATO rifle cartridge.

BSW
 
+1
The evolved Stoner/5.56 Combination has proven itself one of history's greatest/most flexible/longest-lived military small arms.

- Brown Bess (116 years)
- AK47 (72 years)
- M16/4 (56 years)
The M16 got off that a very rocky start though. After the Hill Fights in 1967 where so many rifles failed, my battalion had one M14 per squad just in case of another massive failure.
 
Blame the 7.92x33 Kurz round , developed for the MP43. (later the StG 44) It also spawned the M43 7.62x39 round; the Russians captured some of the MP43's at Cholm and afterward, and studied them. The logistic gains vs. the relative losses (extended range, which largely went unused by then in combat) of the intermediate rage round was immediate apparent, and the studies mentioned above post-war resulted in the 7.62x51.
 
YoungSon has 9 of the last 15 years (7 "tours") in active (no-kidding) combat.
When asked directly, he states he & his troops have had no complaints of that evolved M4.
The M16 got off [to] a very rocky start ...
As you note, the early M-16 was oversold as No-Cleaning Req'd / No Cleaning Equipment Issued / No Upkeep Needed / No Maintenance Training Necessary / Wrong Powder (thanks McNamara) / No Chrome Chamber (thanks again) / Wrong Loading... wrong everything.

We also figured out that the Soldier was part of the total system ...
and issued him tailored instruction that he would actually read.
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07TWLNMTH/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1
< ;) >
 
Last edited:
Blame the 7.92x33 Kurz round , developed for the MP43. (later the StG 44) It also spawned the M43 7.62x39 round; the Russians captured some of the MP43's at Cholm and afterward, and studied them. The logistic gains vs. the relative losses (extended range, which largely went unused by then in combat) of the intermediate rage round was immediate apparent, and the studies mentioned above post-war resulted in the 7.62x51.

I'll have to disagree with that last part. Army Ordnance wanted a 1000 yard man killer like the good old .30-06 and didn't give a hoot what all these 'optimum caliber studies' said.

Besides, the StG44 was an obvious piece of garbage being made of stamped sheet steel instead of a forging. If the deviant, effete Europeans couldn't tolerate the recoil of a real manly man's cartridge, phooey on them.

BSW
 
I'll have to disagree with that last part. Army Ordnance wanted a 1000 yard man killer like the good old .30-06 and didn't give a hoot what all these 'optimum caliber studies' said.

Pretty much. As Hatcher said, the 7.62x51 took advantage of improvements in powder to get .30-06 ballistics in a shorter round better suited to semi and full auto weapons.

Hypothetical: Would the .276 Pedersen have preempted 7.62 AND 5.56? Or maybe the .256 Pedersen (read Ackley.)
I recall that early German work on intermediate cartridges was in 7mm. Did they go 8mm just to salvage barrel reamers?
 
Pretty much. As Hatcher said, the 7.62x51 took advantage of improvements in powder to get .30-06 ballistics in a shorter round better suited to semi and full auto weapons.

Hypothetical: Would the .276 Pedersen have preempted 7.62 AND 5.56? Or maybe the .256 Pedersen (read Ackley.)
I recall that early German work on intermediate cartridges was in 7mm. Did they go 8mm just to salvage barrel reamers?

I suspect that the Germans wanted/were forced to keep as much standard tooling as possible, hence them using 8mm Kurz as they already had some of the tooling for barrels and bullets.

BSW
 
If this discussion has whetted your appetite for the entire story of how we got from the M1 Garand to the M16 by way of the M14 and 7.62 NATO, I recommend Edward Ezell's excellent book The Great Rifle Controversy. It is long out of print, but your local library can borrow a copy for you.

His later work The Black Rifle Volume One also covers some of the same material.
 
I'll have to disagree with that last part. Army Ordnance wanted a 1000 yard man killer like the good old .30-06 and didn't give a hoot what all these 'optimum caliber studies' said.

Besides, the StG44 was an obvious piece of garbage being made of stamped sheet steel instead of a forging. If the deviant, effete Europeans couldn't tolerate the recoil of a real manly man's cartridge, phooey on them.

BSW
And they got close with the .308. But the logistics advantages, particularly more rounds carried in less space and weight cannot be ignored. Note I did not mention .276 or any non-.30 caliber.

As for the second part of your post; I wasn't discussing the platform, but yes, we weren't facing the problems of material and skilled labor shortages the Germans were in 1943. The MP43/StG44 was a masterpiece compared to the Volkssturm last-ditch weapons. The caliber choice was a result of studies done on WWI actual combat distances with an eye toward conserving dwindling resources and increasing effectiveness of the individual soldier. I think it was an innovative and well-though-out weapon, especially when you consider it had to be hidden from Der Fürher because he had the same macho bull attitude in your last sentence.

I suspect that the Germans wanted/were forced to keep as much standard tooling as possible, hence them using 8mm Kurz as they already had some of the tooling for barrels and bullets.

BSW

Probably; and also why we stuck to .30 caliber. As noted above we did not even have the manufacutring and labor constraints they were under.
 
Small arms are a side show for most large militaries. Bombs with their delivery systems, ships, aircraft, artillery shells, rockets, missiles, etc. instruments of mass mayhem are the big ticket items, even during the 1920's-1960's.

In bad budget years such as during the 1920's-30's, the urge to move to a new caliber firearm that would require either A) having two separate cartridges, a .276 Pederson and a .30-06 as the machine guns were in .30-06 such as the light machine guns, the BAR, etc. would complicate logistics, manufacturing (Frankford and contractors would have to operate two separate bullet lines), and so on.

The Brits were similarly constrained as were the Germans, Russians, and to some extent the French. The professionals in armies weren't dummies that failed to recognize the potential of new cartridges, but the marginal improvements at fairly large budget, training and logistics complications, made a cost/benefit analysis that the status quo was good enough. So a lot of the pre WWII efforts were made in streamlining production with marginal improvements in perceived deficiencies (the no. 4 series with good peep sights and easier to manufacture, the French aborted move to the newer MAS 36 with the transition to the MAS auto firing series in mind, the US move to the Garand semi-auto, the Germans settled on the shorter 98k, open sights with settings down to 100 m, and decentralized production, and the Japanese recognizing the limitations of the 6.5 Arisaka and attempting to move to the more authoritative 7.7).

Wartime rules are different and rulebooks get tossed in the imperative to improve military performance but then peace soon or later comes with diminished budgets. The Cold War era of planning the use of atomic theater weapons in Central Europe to combat the mass Warsaw Pact hordes made the whole 7.62 NATO debates rather an academic sideshow during the 1950's. The move to magazine fired weapons and a new generation of machine guns was quite enough for Pentagon procurement folks that were much more concerned with air superiority, the development of missiles, nuclear artillery shells, new tanks, etc. along with the training, procurement,and logistics of moving from the .30-06 to the 7.62. Realistically, the Americans, aside from NIMBY, was not going to move to the British newer 7mm based round as the British themselves could barely afford to re-equip its military with the ancillary light machine guns,etc. The British also borrowed heavily from the US during WWII's earlier stages to equip its forces and provide food to the populace. Due to Uncle Sam picking up the assorted bills for NATO along with offering trade concessions to keep the West united, it could afford to call the tune to its liking.

It liked the 7.62 NATO as good enough, the M-14 as a budget cutting do all, and the new NATO round being a quite good substitute for the light machine guns to replace the older outdated WWI era machine guns.

If you recognize the well-being of individual troops/sailors/Marines/airman are not the primary concern of the bureaucracy in the Pentagon except when forced on its attention during wartime due to casualties and the ensuing public pressure to fix it, then you can understand how the defense bureaucracies in the World continually make decisions that result in casualties down the road. Other things are simply more important to them. It is a perpetual defect in bureaucracy that the more remote the leaders at the top from accountability and direct consequences of their actions, the worse it is for the poor sods at the bottom of the pyramid.

As the old saying goes, if you ain't the lead dog in a sled team, the scenery never changes.
 
7.62x51 for all intents and purposes is a 30-06 short. From a story my father told me (WW II vet), the short round was developed around the desire for a shorter action and higher cyclic rate. Anecdotal story and no proof but seems reasonable to me.


.40

And now, many years later we have the 30T/C reinventing a similar wheel as far as cartridge performance goes. Not so much on the military usage part, although I doubt the t/c cartridge will ever gain the popularity of the 308win/7.62nato.
 
Maybe the US wanted it's own best shortened 30'06. In 06 the 30'06 pushed a 150 grainer about 2700fps. In '08 the Swiss had developed it's newest rifle ammo. It's gp11, a 174gr ammo that pushed about 2650 fps. In 1926 the US introduced M1 ball ammo, with a Swiss inspired bullet(174grain).The 1953/54 308win/762nato was a higher pressure and more efficient equivilant round when compared to the 30'06 or 7.5Swiss. BestAll
 
Last edited:
Small arms are a side show for most large militaries. Bombs with their delivery systems, ships, aircraft, artillery shells, rockets, missiles, etc. instruments of mass mayhem are the big ticket items, even during the 1920's-1960's.

In bad budget years such as during the 1920's-30's, the urge to move to a new caliber firearm that would require either A) having two separate cartridges, a .276 Pederson and a .30-06 as the machine guns were in .30-06 such as the light machine guns, the BAR, etc. would complicate logistics, manufacturing (Frankford and contractors would have to operate two separate bullet lines), and so on.

The Brits were similarly constrained as were the Germans, Russians, and to some extent the French. The professionals in armies weren't dummies that failed to recognize the potential of new cartridges, but the marginal improvements at fairly large budget, training and logistics complications, made a cost/benefit analysis that the status quo was good enough. So a lot of the pre WWII efforts were made in streamlining production with marginal improvements in perceived deficiencies (the no. 4 series with good peep sights and easier to manufacture, the French aborted move to the newer MAS 36 with the transition to the MAS auto firing series in mind, the US move to the Garand semi-auto, the Germans settled on the shorter 98k, open sights with settings down to 100 m, and decentralized production, and the Japanese recognizing the limitations of the 6.5 Arisaka and attempting to move to the more authoritative 7.7).

Wartime rules are different and rulebooks get tossed in the imperative to improve military performance but then peace soon or later comes with diminished budgets. The Cold War era of planning the use of atomic theater weapons in Central Europe to combat the mass Warsaw Pact hordes made the whole 7.62 NATO debates rather an academic sideshow during the 1950's. The move to magazine fired weapons and a new generation of machine guns was quite enough for Pentagon procurement folks that were much more concerned with air superiority, the development of missiles, nuclear artillery shells, new tanks, etc. along with the training, procurement,and logistics of moving from the .30-06 to the 7.62. Realistically, the Americans, aside from NIMBY, was not going to move to the British newer 7mm based round as the British themselves could barely afford to re-equip its military with the ancillary light machine guns,etc. The British also borrowed heavily from the US during WWII's earlier stages to equip its forces and provide food to the populace. Due to Uncle Sam picking up the assorted bills for NATO along with offering trade concessions to keep the West united, it could afford to call the tune to its liking.

It liked the 7.62 NATO as good enough, the M-14 as a budget cutting do all, and the new NATO round being a quite good substitute for the light machine guns to replace the older outdated WWI era machine guns.

If you recognize the well-being of individual troops/sailors/Marines/airman are not the primary concern of the bureaucracy in the Pentagon except when forced on its attention during wartime due to casualties and the ensuing public pressure to fix it, then you can understand how the defense bureaucracies in the World continually make decisions that result in casualties down the road. Other things are simply more important to them. It is a perpetual defect in bureaucracy that the more remote the leaders at the top from accountability and direct consequences of their actions, the worse it is for the poor sods at the bottom of the pyramid.

As the old saying goes, if you ain't the lead dog in a sled team, the scenery never changes.
The big ticket items are where the money goes. It wasn't until Krulak that Marines got an upgrade on field gear. And Marines in WW1 had better belt suspender straps than we had in Vietnam. So when that F4 is coming in what a load of napalm for an enemy within spitting distance, life can't get uncomfortable.
 
A follow-up to my earlier post.

Upon returning from England, Dad's next duty was the Vietnamese Language School at Biggs Field, Ft. Bliss, El Paso, TX. Nest stop? Vietnam.

Realize that due to the unique nature of his England assignments, he had not fired qualification with any weapon for over 4 years. They told him that he would be assigned an M16 in Vietnam, but they had none available to even fire familiarization. They gave him a brick of .22 LR ammo, and told him to brush up on his own (?!?). He said fooey to that, and gave me the brick of ammo (Hooray! I was rich beyond belief!). As soon as he got to Vietnam he threw the M16 in his hootch, and scrounged a Model 12 riot gun and a Browning Hi-Power. Those are what he carried in the field for his year in the bush with ARVN troops as part of MAC-V Intelligence. You fight with what you are comfortable with, even if it is not always in the TO&E. :)

The last rifle that he fired for qualification was the M14, in 1963. He never fired a single round through the M16, and retired in 1971.

Fortunately he made it home in one piece, and is still going strong at age 87.
 
Realistically, the Americans, aside from NIMBY, was not going to move to the British newer 7mm based round as the British themselves could barely afford to re-equip its military with the ancillary light machine guns,etc. The British also borrowed heavily from the US during WWII's earlier stages to equip its forces and provide food to the populace.
The British 7mm, the .280/30, was also a pretty lack-luster cartridge. The Brits advertised it as a 139 gr bullet at 2550 fps, which would not be all that bad, after all the French were using a 139 gr bullet at 2700 fps.

However, the ammunition provided to the the US Army for testing averaged about 2180 fps out of a 24 inch barrel. So, not only did it have a nice rainbow trajectory, compared to the T65E3 cartridge, it could never hope to have the AP performance required by the US.
 
280 British, at least at its original specs, would have been the way to go. Better suited for rifles like the FAL than the 308, while retaining most of the 308's range for the machine guns. The gap between 8lb assault rifles and 30lb mounted machine guns may be too large for a one-size-fits-all caliber to bridge, no cartridge that I'm aware of has done it well yet, but the 280 looks about as close as anything.

Now say we did adopt the 280. Project SALVO would still be out there, and they were agitating for as many bullets in the air as possible (they didn't even really want the 5.56 - they were all about their 2000 round per minute fletchette rifles, and some of their designs were pretty darn impressive), but it would be interesting to see if their 22 caliber project could go anywhere with a military that was standardized on 280. We don't have any problems today feeding our rifles with 5.56 and our MGs with 7.62, so it definitely wouldn't be impossible, but convincing the military to split its one steady stream of rifle ammo into two probably wouldn't happen. Chances are we'd be rocking 7mm assault rifles to this day.
 
Last edited:
A few people here mentioned that it was because shorter rounds can have a higher feed rate than longer rounds.

As someone who doesn’t know much in this area didn’t the mg42 feed quite quickly on a long ass round (8mm).
 
280 British, at least at its original specs, would have been the way to go. Better suited for rifles like the FAL than the 308, while retaining most of the 308's range for the machine guns. The gap between 8lb assault rifles and 30lb mounted machine guns may be too large for a one-size-fits-all caliber to bridge, no cartridge that I'm aware of has done it well yet, but the 280 looks about as close as anything.

Now say we did adopt the 280. Project SALVO would still be out there, and they were agitating for as many bullets in the air as possible (they didn't even really want the 5.56 - they were all about their 2000 round per minute fletchette rifles, and some of their designs were pretty darn impressive), but it would be interesting to see if their 22 caliber project could go anywhere with a military that was standardized on 280. We don't have any problems today feeding our rifles with 5.56 and our MGs with 7.62, so it definitely wouldn't be impossible, but convincing the military to split its one steady stream of rifle ammo into two probably wouldn't happen. Chances are we'd be rocking 7mm assault rifles to this day.
Unfortunately, what was promised and what could be delivered were two very different things.

In order to meet the velocity specs, it needed an longer case, the 49mm or 50mm case, to get the AP performance, a 145 gr bullet was required.

So, you have a 49 or 50 mm long British case versus a 51 mm US case, and a 145 grain British AP bullet versus a 149 grain US AP bullet. So, what would the gains for the US be in switching to 7mm?

A few people here mentioned that it was because shorter rounds can have a higher feed rate than longer rounds.
No....

The Colt Mk 12 that shot 20mm x 110 with a overall cartridge length of 7-1/4 inches, The Browning M3/GAU-21/A shooting Caliber .50 (12.7mm x 99) with a 5.45 inch overall cartridge length, and the CETME Ameli shooting 5.56mm x 45 with an overall cartridge length of 2-1/4 inches, all have about the same cyclic rate of fire, about 1,000 - 1,200 rpm.
 
Last edited:
A few people here mentioned that it was because shorter rounds can have a higher feed rate than longer rounds.

As someone who doesn’t know much in this area didn’t the mg42 feed quite quickly on a long ass round (8mm).

The main advantage of shorter rounds is that they are lighter and since the receiver can be smaller they result in weapons that are smaller and lighter. Cartridge size dictates the minimum size of auto loading weapon.

BSW
 
There were four factors that lead to us ending up with the 7.62:

1) Small arms were proved ineffective in WWII due to atrocious marksmanship. Some smart bean counter started taking the number of rounds shipped to theater and dividing it by the enemy casualties (of all causes, not just small arms fire). The number was approximately 10,000 rounds/casualty in WWII (it increased to 100K in Vietnam and a quarter million in the sandbox wars). The only possible conclusion was that the soldier's rifles were noisemakers, not effective weapons that hit the enemy. Time to downsize them and devote more resources to Mr. LeMay who could actually hit the enemy effectively. The problem was indeed marksmanship and aiming systems rather than the weapons themselves (various marskmanship units in numerous wars have achieved shot to casualty ratios of less than 2) but that didn't change the outcome: The troops got their noisemakers downsized. And of course everyone had just been shown that the nuke was the weapon of the future.

2) The 03 -> 06 line of cartridge development was a disaster from day one. The bore diameter was too big. The case capacity was too big, and became ridiculously so as powders improved. The fact that the 03 was incompatible with boat tail spire points was pure incompetence since the Lebel was well known when it was designed. Yet army supply couldn't bring themselves to give up the .30 bore diameter despite seeing the superiority of the .276 Pedersen during the Garand trials. The case and sholder tapers were too high - supposedly for machine gun feeding when in reality the way to improve that was a shorter round. You'd be hard pressed to find anything right about the 03/06 really.

3) The M14 project was replacing more than just the Garand, and it was hard to argue a Thompson replacement should be in a round over 3" long.

4) Powder technology allowed the duplication of .30-06 ballistics in a smaller round. This was a remarkable example of bureaucratic myopia, because what we should have been doing was getting away from the horrible .30-06 ballistics rather than duplicating it. But bureaucracies do what they do.

Of course in a few short years everyone had to acknowledge that the communists has smaller, cheaper noisemakers that were just as effective (both being totally ineffective) and that we would have to downsize again or fall hopelessly behind in the shooting vaguely near the enemy race. But that's a whole 'nother story :D
 
But while the 5.56 has it's issues, I still maintain that as a general issue option we are better off with it than we would have been had we stayed with 308 or any of the larger cartridges.

Absolutely. In the current marksmanship environment where hits are essentially non-existent, it's absurd to arm the troops with a heavier weapon with improved ballistics. A 7.62 miss is no more effective than a 5.56 miss. The obvious extension of this is to eventually send the infantry out without any sort of firearm - just body armor and a backpack full of random stuff. It's hard to see how that would be different from our current approach practically speaking.

In the context of the small fraction of troops intending to hit what they're shooting at, the advantages of larger rounds are much the same as they are in hunting, and we see the 7.62 persist as well as a proliferation of quasi-official long range options with .300WM being the most popular.
 
I see you've never been in or trained for ground combat. Air Force vet, perhaps?

Mr. LeMay's Little Mushroom Makers have not been not applicable in any war waged since WWII, or they would have been used. The time to have done that would have been about 1952-57, and it was not done. So proxy wars were waged instead, where those little peashooters you deride became much more important than air delivered W-80's.

1) Small arms were proved ineffective in WWII due to atrocious marksmanship.

Ever hear of covering fire? Beaten zones? Enfilade fire? Defilade fire? Supressive fire? Much of this fire was successful, and effective, but hits were not the measure of success, despite the part of the RIfleman's Prayer that says otherwise. Combat is not a First Person Shooter video game.

The only possible conclusion was that the soldier's rifles were noisemakers, not effective weapons that hit the enemy.

Perhaps your only possible conclusion. I can think of others. Small Arms are not only used in the precision marskmanship role on a battle field. Indeed even when they are, the physological factors of ground combat, (Adrenaline being the most obvious; others are night, smoke, noise, etc. ) reduce effectiveness at times. Individual rifles and MG's are often used for fire suppression in movement. They are also used to pin an enemy force down while other assets are brought online (Grenade Launchers, Mortars, Artillery, Air Assets, depending on what is available and/or needed) to destroy that enemy force. Your average soldier is not tasked with precision fire at high-value targets. There are people with specific training and hardware organic to the unit tasked with that . (DM's and Snipers) While a certain level of competency with their individual weapon is expected, and soldiers are trained and qualified to this level, not everybody can be trained to sniper-level, even if time and training dollars were available.

Shall we discuss small arms fire (to include 20 and 30 mm) from aircraft hit ratios? They are even more atrocious than individual rifle fire, yet they serve a very specific and deadly purpose, as some vets of the sandbox will tell you about the effect of Apaches, Warthogs, and Specters (among other aircraft types) effect on the enemy's will to stay engaged in combat.
 
This has been a fascinating thread.

Thanks to everyone who has contributed.
 
The M1 Garand (which I will defend) had some shortcomings. One of them was the en bloc clip, which needed a Rube Goldberg mechanism -- that made it harder to manufacture, among other things. The obvious solution was a sheet metal box magazine. There were other areas that could be improved -- for example the cam that operated the bolt. It was replaced with a roller bearing.

In the process of improving the Garand, the Army looked at a shorter cartridge -- one advantage of shortening the .30-06 by half an inch was an enormous savings in brass -- and when you buy cartridges by the billion, that mounts up.

The Army considered alternative designs and foreign designs but picked the "Improved Garand" -- the M14. In my opinion, that was the best choice. I've used both the M1 (during my first tour as an adviser) and the M14 (during my second tour as a company commander) and loved them both.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top