Fate or Luck, 9mm Squib

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71GTO

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I am new to reloading so I have spent the past several months reading manuals, searching forums, watching videos and continually practicing making dummy rounds with my Lee Classic Turret and single stage presses. I had previously on Saturday prepped and primed 25 cases so I finally decided on Sunday that I was ready to load some live ammo. I worked up 25- 9mm cases in five (5) groups of five (5) each.

From reading the forums I found that Alliant BE-86 seemed to be a good powder for 9mm and happened to be one of the few powders that anyone had left in stock. I had already purchased 500
Speer 115gr CPRN bullets a few weeks back. Neither my Lyman 50'th or Lee 2'nd lists anything in 9mm using BE-86, but I was able to find recipes for both BE-86 and the exact Speer 115 CPRN's at both Alliant and Speer.

Both Alliant and Speer listed the OAL at 1.135". Alliant listed the max charge at 6.3gr. and Speer at 6.2gr. with Speer starting at 5.4gr. I found a really long 34 page post about BE-86 on THR and it seemed that the largest census was to start a 5.6gr and work up from there and being 5.6 is 10% of 6.2gr I felt comfortable with that charge. So I went about charging the cases as follows:

I used an Ohaus 505 beam scale, Gemini 20 and Bald Eagle digital scales. I had already purchased some verified check weights in 2, 4, 5 and 10gr. I zeroed and tared my pan on all three scales. Every batch of powder was within .01gr with the Ohaus beam and Gemini matching exactly each time.

I filled each of the 1'st five cases with 5.6gr. by using the small Lee dipper and funnel and trickling the last tiny bit. Checked the weight on the 3-scales and verified the level in each case with a bench mounted LED powered Magnifying Lamp. I did this as the case sat on the shell holder of my LEE CTP, before I pressed the bullet. I use the turret as a single stage for now.

If I haven't learned anything else on this forum from all you guys, it is to make absolutely certain that the powder level is verified to be both accurate and existing before placing a bullet in the case.
Believe me when I tell you that I have total respect for any type of explosive because I almost lost my hand at 13-years old to an M80, which had a fast fuse and blew up in my hand before I could let it go. Thank God for the Surgeon who happened to be visiting his mother at the hospital the night I went in the ER!!! Since that time I haven't taken any undue risks with any type of explosive and always practice safety to a tee. Sorry for getting off topic.

So I repeated the above with 5- cases each charged at 5.6gr, 5.7gr., 5.8gr, 5.9gr and 6.0gr.
My plan was to shoot each one, check for over pressure signs and gradually work up to the 6.0gr unless I saw an issue of any kind. Unfortunately when I got to the range on Monday to test my first go at live ammunition, things didn't go as planned.

I unloaded my truck, set up my Chrono and put my targets up. Loaded the first group of five (5.6gr.) in the magazine of my CZ P07, took aim, squeezed the trigger and CLICK!!!
At the exact moment in time when I pulled the trigger and only heard a click, a man came up behind me screaming to stop shooting. It wasn't because of the click, but because he was a range officer sent there to make everyone leave the range right now because the County just issued a shut down notice to all County facilities. Need less to say I was pissed because of everything I did leading up to that moment of being able to actually shoot my own home rolled bullets and now I had to leave. It wasn't until he walked away that I looked at my gun and realized that either fate or luck had intervened on my behalf. I had immediately put my gun on safe, dropped the magazine and ejected the round from the chamber when the man came up behind me. Unfortunately I couldn't find the round that I ejected because the dang sand is so thick and I believe that this man may have actually inadvertently stepped on it covering it up even more. I tried to find it, but he was super hyper about me and everyone else gathering our stuff and getting off the property so that he could pad lock the gate until supposedly May 1'st.

After clearing the pistol I looked into the chamber to be sure it was clear and to my amazement there was the bullet poking out of the chamber. It wasn't jammed into the rifling, but was tight enough that I couldn't pull it or bang it out and had to use my cleaning rod to push it out. I realized at that moment that I had just experienced the first squib of my 60-year old life and worst, I was the one who created it! I mentioned fate because even though I want to believe that I would have checked the chamber before racking another round, I'll never know for sure and if I would have and the next bullet would have pushed the squib far enough in to be able to go into battery........we all know what could have been the outcome.

Unfortunately since I couldn't find the spent case is there any definitive way to know exactly what may have gone wrong? The bullet definitely had soot on it, but when I field stripped the CZ I didn't see any signs of loose gun powder or loose soot anywhere.
I will say that I am 99.9999% positive that I charged all of the cases with the correct amount of powder because I wasn't doing anything else at the time but paying total attention to loading the powder. However I also realize that it appears that a no-charge or low charge almost has to be the culprit because of the location of the bullet since it makes sense that just the pressure of the primer would be able to move the bullet that little bit.

Can anyone else come up with another example of what the issue could have been? Could I have done something else wrong in the loading process? Is it be possible that a lack of neck tension or some other issue caused this?
I used the Lee 4- piece Deluxe Die set, but I didn't use the FCD because I have heard to much conflicting information on it's use. I checked each completed round with my Sheridan slotted ammo gauge and also did the plunk test on each one with my CZ barrel.
As I said I used an OAL of 1.135" (per Speer) and measured each round. The actual measurements were between 1.135 - 1.138" after seating the bullets. I also loaded them in the magazine and cycled the slide on each one and remeasured them. I didn't measure any differences which showed a sign of being set back.

Also just so you are aware, I had previously measured the chamber of my CZ and determined that the max OAL for this pistol is 1.165" so it doesn't appear that the OAL of 1.135" would create a problem would it? Does anyone have experience using BE-86 to know if a charge of 5.6gr could have been low enough to create this squib? I wouldn't think so based on a a max charge of 6.2 - 6.3 gr., but I am totally new to this so I will take any and all advise, help, criticism, etc. to help me solve and not make this same mistake again.

Thank all of you who reads my post!
 
You've got some novice startup issues, that's all. Most likely no powder in that one case. It's a strange thing, but the more you stop and check, the more likely you are to make a mistake. Seems odd, but of all the novices I've helped that's the story that emerges. So you really need to work on a process, and then let the process run. Any checking is done BEFORE and AFTER... not during the process.

► Try a process more like this... Setup your powder measure by running a fired case under it, over and over (maybe 8 or more times), until your 505 says you're dumping the correct amount of powder. In this case, 5.6gr. If your OAL is set, then you can make your 5 cartridges. (DON'T take the case out of the shell holder. Simply look inside to check the powder.) Place the bullet, seat it, and you got your 5 cartridges. You know you have the correct amount of powder because you checked your powder measure BEFORE you started. Now, take your fired case again, and re-adjust your PM to achieve 5.7gr. Do that enough times that you trust it will drop 5.7gr and load 5 more. Repeat as needed.

That's a continuous loading process with ZERO interruptions. It has a flow, and the flow takes you seamlessly from start to finish.

Hope this helps.
 
A primer going off makes a pretty darn loud bang, not a click. Also, a primer would have probably driven the bullet at least a little ways down the barrel, not just wedged it intro the rifling.
When working up a load, there is little benefit from loading in .1gr increments. Often you can't tell the difference between charge weights that close. Going up by .2 is more productive. Also, a sample of only 5 at each charge weight isn't really a big enough sample size to tell anything other than if they go bang or not
 
rfwobbly said:
You've got some novice startup issues, that's all. Most likely no powder in that one case. It's a strange thing, but the more you stop and check, the more likely you are to make a mistake. Seems odd, but of all the novices I've helped that's the story that emerges. So you really need to work on a process, and then let the process run. Any checking is done BEFORE and AFTER... not during the process.

► Try a process more like this... Setup your powder measure by running a fired case under it, over and over (maybe 8 or more times), until your 505 says you're dumping the correct amount of powder. In this case, 5.6gr. If your OAL is set, then you can make your 5 cartridges. (DON'T take the case out of the shell holder. Simply look inside to check the powder.) Place the bullet, seat it, and you got your 5 cartridges. You know you have the correct amount of powder because you checked your powder measure BEFORE you started. Now, take your fired case again, and re-adjust your PM to achieve 5.7gr. Do that enough times that you trust it will drop 5.7gr and load 5 more. Repeat as needed.

That's a continuous loading process with ZERO interruptions. It has a flow, and the flow takes you seamlessly from start to finish.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...
That's very, very good advice. I don't screw anything up, untill I've checked it so many times I'm 100% sure I'm good.
 
Jonesy814

"A primer going off makes a pretty darn loud bang, not a click. Also, a primer would have probably driven the bullet at least a little ways down the barrel, not just wedged it intro the rifling".

With 100% accuracy I can tell you that it was not a bang. I heard the same sound as if I was dry firing and that is why I was so surprised to find the bullet lodged. From the lack of the "bang" and the fact that the bullet didn't make it a "ways down the barrel", what else do you think could have moved the bullet the little bit that it did actually move?

Also thanks for the suggestion of moving up in .2 increments instead of .1. As far as larger samples of each group that is my intention, but I just wanted to try a few just to see what the outcome was before possibly messing up a bunch of them.

Also let me ask you this. Since I have 24- of these cartridges left since I haven't broken them down yet, do you think it would be safe for me to shoot them one at a time. I'm thinking that if I did indeed inadvertently not charge one of them, that it makes sense to test the others by just loading them one at a time in the mag. I wouldn't have to be worried about a squib because I would be checking each one before loading another.

Thanks for your help.
 
rfwobbly said:
You've got some novice startup issues, that's all. Most likely no powder in that one case. It's a strange thing, but the more you stop and check, the more likely you are to make a mistake. Seems odd, but of all the novices I've helped that's the story that emerges. So you really need to work on a process, and then let the process run. Any checking is done BEFORE and AFTER... not during the process.

► Try a process more like this... Setup your powder measure by running a fired case under it, over and over (maybe 8 or more times), until your 505 says you're dumping the correct amount of powder. In this case, 5.6gr. If your OAL is set, then you can make your 5 cartridges. (DON'T take the case out of the shell holder. Simply look inside to check the powder.) Place the bullet, seat it, and you got your 5 cartridges. You know you have the correct amount of powder because you checked your powder measure BEFORE you started. Now, take your fired case again, and re-adjust your PM to achieve 5.7gr. Do that enough times that you trust it will drop 5.7gr and load 5 more. Repeat as needed.

That's a continuous loading process with ZERO interruptions. It has a flow, and the flow takes you seamlessly from start to finish.

Hope this helps.
Click to expand...

rfwobbly,

This sounds like good, wise advise that I will indeed heed. It's exactly the type of help that I was hoping for.

Thanks again
 
All I can add is I am so glad you were not hurt. At this point you may never know the reason for the misfire. Just file it the memory bank and proceed slowly and cautiously.

I've had one ant it was just a couple years ago and happened just after I had started wet tumbling my brass. Upon further investigation by pulling bullets apart I found 5 more out of twenty that had wet powder in them. I immediately changed my procedure.
 
Jonesy814 said:
A primer going off makes a pretty darn loud bang, not a click. Also, a primer would have probably driven the bullet at least a little ways down the barrel, not just wedged it intro the rifling.
t
Click to expand...

Nope
A primer only shot can potentially shoot a 38 special 158g bullet at 312 fps into the target (1st hand experience)
A primer only shot can also leave a .224 bullet firmly seated in an 5.56 brass case as if the primer were seated to high. You'll see soot in the back of the impact-pulled bullet (1st hand experience)
A primer only shot can leave a bullet wedged into the rifling of a handgun or rifle leaving the case empty and ejected when cycled by the slide or bolt. (1st hand experience)

So the bullet can 1. exit the case and exit the barrel, 2. exit the case and get stuck in the barrel or 3. stay in the case.

In any event, when you pull the trigger and don't get a full recoil reaction.

ASSUME SOMETHING WENT WRONG AND STOP EVERYTHING.

In most cases you can eject the case. Check for a barrel obstruction, then go to the next step.

If the bullet is still in the case, ensure the barrel is clear and you are GTG.

If the barrel is clear, you are GTG.

If the barrel is obstructed, take your range rod and clear it (or go home and clear it). Notice that having a range rod and hammer makes shooting much more convenient.

Use the lubricant you brought with you (like some Rem Oil) to help drive the bullet out of the barrel.

Note that I speak from experience.
I'm not proud that I've experienced some "no powder" squibs but I've never had a catastrophic event due to one.
 
Jonesy814 said:
A primer going off makes a pretty darn loud bang, not a click.
Click to expand...
Wearing hearing protection and with other shots going off around you, it is entirely possible for a primer-only (powderless) strike to be perceived as a “click” failure to fire with no recoil. Trust me, I know from experience. I thought I had a dud primer once, but when I racked the slide I discovered that I didn’t. I’ve also heard a couple of primer-only strikes in the lane next to me that just sounded like dull thuds, not sharp bangs.

Edit: fxvr5 beat me to it. I need to learn to type with 2 fingers.
 
I'm also new to reloading. I do a couple things different. I always shoot a little factory ammo before shooting any reloads, just to work out the firearm first to make sure things are running good. If I'm testing a new gun or a new reload, I load one round and then a dummy round - it is just how I do it to start. I want to see if it fires and chambers the next round; that is the first test and it only takes 1 live round to do that.
 
71GTO said:
This sounds like good, wise advise that I will indeed heed. It's exactly the type of help that I was hoping for. Thanks again.
Click to expand...
There's actually quite a lot to, what on the surface looks to be, the "simple" operation of the powder measure.

• If you'll fill your powder measure and then take a fired case and start making "powder drops", you'll see that the first ~10 or more drops have huge weight variations. So what reloaders learn is to "never use the first 10 drops". Those always go back into the hopper.

• You will also learn that powder measures seem to work better when at least 1/2 full, even if you're only going to load 5.

• You will appreciate that powder measures are sometimes sensitive to the weight of the column of powder in the hopper without a "baffle". I highly suggest you "drink a beer for science" and then cut the can per These Instructions.

• When accuracy is important, such as in load testing, you will understand it's simply better to adjust your PM based on several weight readings versus the weight of a single drop. A way to do this is to adjust your powder measure with 10 drops. So that if you want to be very close to 5.6gr, adjust the total weight of 10 drops to be very close to 56.0gr.

And there's more. ;)
 
Last edited:
71GTO said:
I filled each of the 1'st five cases with 5.6gr. by using the small Lee dipper and funnel and trickling the last tiny bit. Checked the weight on the 3-scales and verified the level in each case with a bench mounted LED powered Magnifying Lamp. I did this as the case sat on the shell holder of my LEE CTP, before I pressed the bullet. I use the turret as a single stage for now.
Thank all of you who reads my post!
Click to expand...

Do you have a powder measure or just the Lee Dippers?
 
rfwobbly said:
There's actually quite a lot to, what on the surface looks to be, the "simple" operation of the powder measure.

• If you'll fill your powder measure and then take a fired case and start making "powder drops", you'll see that the first ~10 or more drops have huge weight variations. So what reloaders learn is to "never use the first 10 drops". Those always go back into the hopper.

• You will also learn that powder measures seem to work better when at least 1/2 full, even if you're only going to load 5.

• You will appreciate that powder measures are sometimes sensitive to the weight of the column of powder in the hopper without a "baffle". I highly suggest you "drink a beer for science" and then cut the can per These Instructions.

• When accuracy is important, such as in load testing, you will understand it's simply better to adjust your PM based on several weight readings versus the weight of a single drop. A way to do this is to adjust your powder measure with 10 drops. So that if you want to be very close to 5.6gr, adjust the total weight of 10 drops to be very close to 56.0gr.

And there's more. ;)
Click to expand...

rfwobbly

Thanks again for the additional information and it's very timely because I actually obtained 3- different PM's, but haven't decided which one would be the best to use. I have the RCBS Uniflow with a small drum and baffle, Lee Auto Drum and a Lee Deluxe Perfect PM. Would you happen to know which of these would be the best for me to learn to use?
 
If I were loading on a Lee Turret press as you describe and are using the Lee Powder thu expander die I would mount the Lee Auto drum on the die and use it. Which I do. With the small drum it can be adjusted down to some very small light charges. Also the extra drums are cheap so you can find a load that works and always change drums instead of readjusting the measure. With pistol powders I find it to be very consistent.
 
It’s probable that you had a “ffft” squib or impartial burn. Weird things happen. Maybe some tumbling media or a small stone in the primer hole. Maybe a faulty primer.

However I’ve seen a couple instances where people have seated bullets too long, have jammed them into the lands, and racking the slide pulled the bullet free from the case and left it in the lands. Maybe you had a case with poor neck tension. Maybe you had a cracked case but didn’t notice. Maybe the bullet was slightly undersized. CZs are often cited as having “short” chambers compared to many other pistols.

Plunk test a few and maybe do a feeding test by hand cycling a few in your basement with a solid backdrop. If they plunk and cycle fine then you can be fairly confident it was either a “silent but deadly” squib or something strange with that one round that left the bullet either seated long and/or with insufficient tension.

In either case you would not have been able to chamber another round behind it unless it was so undersized that your next round could have pushed it sufficiently up the barrel just with the force of chambering which is IMO extremely unlikely.
 
What kind of brass were you using? Was it “new” or “once fired”? It’s too bad you didn’t get the ejected case because if it was a .380 case through a 9mm process potentially there wasn’t enough neck tension and you got the “ffft” squib like @1KPerDay mentions.
@rfwobbly has some good advice on process. If you don’t want to charge cases on the press, get a loading block that holds the cases in nice neat rows. It’s what most people use when getting started on a single stage press. Once the sized primed cases have been checked, you can charge the cases row by row or column by column. Once you think you have finished, with good light you can view inside the cases and verify powder charges. The eye and brain are pretty good at looking at repeating patterns and detecting when something isn’t right. You can then seat and crimp bullets. The crimp on a 9mm is typically only enough to remove the bell of the expanding step.

Given your description of your process, I would be comfortable trying the other rounds one at a time as you suggested. Good luck!
 
Jonesy814 said:
A primer going off makes a pretty darn loud bang, not a click. Also, a primer would have probably driven the bullet at least a little ways down the barrel, not just wedged it intro the rifling.
When working up a load, there is little benefit from loading in .1gr increments. Often you can't tell the difference between charge weights that close. Going up by .2 is more productive. Also, a sample of only 5 at each charge weight isn't really a big enough sample size to tell anything other than if they go bang or not
Click to expand...

I've only had two squibs, and at least with ear protection, there was nothing but a click. Same batch of bullets, both the same day. Both times the bullet was about 1/3 of the way down the barrel. Only sound, again with ear protection was just a click.

Russellc
 
Agree. At a IDPA or USPSA match, the range officer and most of the rest of the squad will yell STOP STOP! at the muffled pop because if not warned the shooter is very likely to rack out the "misfire" and try to shoot again. Which, if the bullet were driven far enough by the primer to let another round chamber, would surely bulge the barrel and maybe do worse damage if a Major power factor load.

I generally adjust pistol loads in 0.2 grain increments, but this week while adjusting for a new style of bullet of the same weight and type, found my desired velocity only 0.1 grain heavier than the old stuff.
 
Many good points already raised. It is possible that you did not actually experience a squib - just a failure to fire (with an insufficiently seated primer being most likely) and a bullet yanked out through engagement with the lands. Have you plunked-and-spun each and every one of your other rounds? It's quite possible that you're getting a ogive/throat interference fit.

If that's not it, then you almost certainly did grossly undercharge a round or never got powder in at all. And I would look at all the manual handling of powder and case that you're doing as being places where human error can creep in. Every human step in the process that requires some affirmative action - moving something from here to there, pouring something, etc. - is a point of failure that (especially for a new loader who hasn't yet "grooved" his process into subconscious repetition) has a far higher likelihood of failure than any of the mechanical devices involved. I prefer to let the mechanical devices do as much of the "remembering" and "performing" as possible, while I use my conscious attention to monitor those processes.

You don't need a series of high-precision balance scales to load handgun rounds. Just one scale will do... and it can be a relatively inexpensive digital scale. And you don't need to hand-trickle every charge once you're out of the testing stage - you should be working towards being able to throw the charges with a powder dispenser (such as a Lee Autodrum mounted on your LCT). And it is my firm belief that using an LCT as a turret is safer and more reliable than single-stage loading - again, less human affirmative-memory steps, and therefore less chance of an error.
 
Sounds like a whole lot of coincidences that added up to a "what the heck". Primer only with ear muffs, could have made the sound heard just a "click". Being distracted as you ejected what? A loaded round or the empty case? Would you have looked to make sure the barrel/chamber was clear afterwards? To me, that would be more of a concern than anything. The squib could have been a coupla things. As others said, no powder. Primer could have been contaminated and not ignited the powder. Without being able to examine the spent case as it was extracted, we'll never really know. What we do know is something happened and you need to re-examine your reloading technique/process to make sure it doesn't happen again.
 
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