Cap & Ball 'Colt' 1873 SAA

Dark Skies · Jan 31, 2022

I shoot competitively over the same distance (25 yards) so I try to shoot my guns with the lowest load that'll give a straight trajectory at that distance - anything more and I'm burning more powder than I need to and making a rod for my own back in recoil that I need to control. Sometimes less is better.

As you can imagine a light load leaves an awful lot of empty space once a regular lubed wad and a ball are pressed on top. A good number at my club fill that space behind the ball with an inert powder such as semolina - so the ball is closer to the forcing cone. Then they stick grease on top! Yeah, I'm not doing that. Too fiddly and messy.
Takes too long.

So I'll be using 15 grains of black powder, a lubed and much taller (12mm) felt wad, with the ball squished on top.
No grease. If you're getting a nice lead ring shaving then that's all the firewall you need to prevent chain fires.

Dark Skies · Feb 2, 2022

Shot it the other day. That front sight is wayyyy too high. That said they were all on paper at 25 yards.
I think I'll put a splodge of Tipp-Ex on the back as a reference point for aiming. Still, reasonable group (about the span of my hand), flyers aside, for a first time out. I'm going to have to sort out the timing first. The bolt is coming up a little soon, slapping the tip of the guide (and peening it), then dragging along the guide until it falls into the cylinder stop. Some judicious file / polishing work to slow down that bolt a tad is required. Needs sorting before any more shooting gets done. Thus far the peening is negligible so I want to nip that in the bud before it's noticeable.

hawg · Feb 2, 2022

Dark Skies said:
Shot it the other day. That front sight is wayyyy too high. That said they were all on paper at 25 yards.
I think I'll put a splodge of Tipp-Ex on the back as a reference point for aiming. Still, reasonable group (about the span of my hand), flyers aside, for a first time out. I'm going to have to sort out the timing first. The bolt is coming up a little soon, slapping the tip of the guide (and peening it), then dragging along the guide until it falls into the cylinder stop. Some judicious file / polishing work to slow down that bolt a tad is required. Needs sorting before any more shooting gets done. Thus far the peening is negligible so I want to nip that in the bud before it's noticeable.

File the front sight down to fit your load and normal shooting distance. The bolt should drop one full bolt width before the cylinder notch.

45 Dragoon · Feb 3, 2022

The bolt is coming up a little soon said:
The bolt spring is too heavy ( bolt head moving metal), spread the bolt arms slightly (probably sliding off the side of the cam instead of the front) and as Hawg points out, the bolt should hit the "approach" at least a bolt width before the notch.
Before you do anything with the bolt, make sure the cylinder lock-up AND full cock happens simultaneously (you may not need to do anything to the bolt)!! If lockup is just after full cock, stretching the hand will advance the cyl rotation which will (in effect) correct the bolt timing you already have.

Mike

hawg · Feb 3, 2022

Listen to Mike. He knows what he's talking about.

drobs · Feb 3, 2022

Dark Skies are you allowed to store your revolver at home or does it have to stay at your shooting range / club?

Years ago I chatted with a couple UK rifle shooters. IIRC rifles can be stored at home in a safe with the ammo in a separate safe.
This fellow had Marlin 357 magnum lever action, I believe.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

hawg said:
File the front sight down to fit your load and normal shooting distance. The bolt should drop one full bolt width before the cylinder notch.

Ordinarily I would - indeed, I made an entire new front sight out of brass for my Remington NMA .44.
But with this particular pistol I've a mind to take it to Bisley and shoot over various distances - so I don't want to commit myself just yet. Hence the blob of Tippex to assist in seeing 'through' the front blade.
Also, it's under warranty and filing down the front sight might give the vendor and excuse to void it.
If I get a new hammer and try that out and fettle then my warranty remains intact.

hawg · Feb 3, 2022

If you do any filing or polishing on the insides it's going to void your warranty.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

drobs said:
Dark Skies are you allowed to store your revolver at home or does it have to stay at your shooting range / club?

Years ago I chatted with a couple UK rifle shooters. IIRC rifles can be stored at home in a safe with the ammo in a separate safe.
This fellow had Marlin 357 magnum lever action, I believe.

Yes, and no. It depends.

UK firearm law.

If it is a modern cartridge revolver then you can only own them with very long barrels and a permanent rod attachment so it's not concealable. Frankly they are ugly and I won't entertain one. But if you do own one you can keep it at home.
Same with semi auto .22 pistols (we can't possess anything in a larger calibre)

Muzzle loaders can be left as Colt intended (and the Italian fantasy guns) and kept at home in a secure cabinet.

Pistols of historic interest / significance can be held on a section 7 Firearm Certificate and kept at home but never fired:
"Section 7(1): Pistols kept in this category may be possessed on a firearm certificate and can be kept at home. They are to be kept only as part of a collection and may not be fired. To be eligible for 7(1) the pistol must have been made before January 1st 1919 and chambered in a cartridge that is not readily available."

BUT if you have a handgun of historical interest produced after 1919 for which ammunition is readily obtainable then you can still own it under section 7 and may fire it BUT it must be kept in a secure place and shot there. So essentially you have to keep it and shoot it at your club.
When the 1997 Act came into force I could have kept my Beretta 1934, Colt 1911, Browning Hi-Power. Webley Mk.IV at my club. Unfortunately my club (also a gun shop) was closing down due to the impact on their business. There were no other clubs in my area at that time, so I had to take the compensation route on them and my sweet S&W 586

I used the to money to buy rifles and black powder revolvers. LOTS of them.

Apparently the legislation was to tackle firearm crime and make the UK a safer place.
It didn't change anything. Criminals still obtain modern firearms and commit crime with them.
Law-abiding firearm owners still obey the law and don't shoot people.
In the very rare shooting incidents that have involved legally owned firearms the root cause has almost always been that the police didn't perform their background checks with due diligence.

But assuming that wasn't the case ... what the government did, in effect, was to take short range firearms from owners hands and offer them the opportunity to buy much higher powered long range firearms. For every 'slot' (permission to own a handgun) you had on your certificate you automatically were entitled to transfer it to a rifle calibre of your choice. And they can all be stored at home.

So now you have a lot of citizens holding WWI & WWII bolt action military rifles and pistol calibre lever action rifles and every type of single shot mechanism available (semi-auto in anything other than .22 LR was banned in 1988). So how did that in any way make the UK a safer place (if you subscribe to the BS behind it)?

Eh. Sorry. You got me started!
Ask any Brit firearm owner about being scapegoated for the failings of Scottish police (see Dunblane), the loss of property, their sport, and livelihoods and it'll go down a similar path. At length.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

hawg said:
If you do any filing or polishing on the insides it's going to void your warranty.

Yes, I appreciate that. I figured I'd do the same as I did with my Pietta Remington - buy a parts kit and fit that. Then see if matters improve or require fettling. If the latter then I can retain my warranty as I've not altered the original.

The insides of the frame etc are pretty good, actually. I've had Ubertis that were dreadful - tufts of cotton buds clinging to really unacceptable burrs. Hammers dragging. Pietta too. But this one is actually pretty smooth. I won't need to touch it to get this sorted.

That said, if I were to fettle the insides I'll do a factory finish like job of it. In another life I hand made orthopedic appliances where metal contacted flesh. It won't be obvious. Ended up as a mechanic with the Ministry of Defence. I'm a metal sculptor now. I'm reasonably good with metal and stuff.

drobs · Feb 3, 2022

Dark Skies said:
Yes, and no. It depends.

UK firearm law.

If it is a modern cartridge revolver then you can only own them with very long barrels and a permanent rod attachment so it's not concealable. Frankly they are ugly and I won't entertain one. But if you do own one you can keep it at home.
Same with semi auto .22 pistols (we can't possess anything in a larger calibre)

Muzzle loaders can be left as Colt intended (and the Italian fantasy guns) and kept at home in a secure cabinet.

Pistols of historic interest / significance can be held on a section 7 Firearm Certificate and kept at home but never fired:
"Section 7(1): Pistols kept in this category may be possessed on a firearm certificate and can be kept at home. They are to be kept only as part of a collection and may not be fired. To be eligible for 7(1) the pistol must have been made before January 1st 1919 and chambered in a cartridge that is not readily available."

BUT if you have a handgun of historical interest produced after 1919 for which ammunition is readily obtainable then you can still own it under section 7 and may fire it BUT it must be kept in a secure place and shot there. So essentially you have to keep it and shoot it at your club.
When the 1997 Act came into force I could have kept my Beretta 1934, Colt 1911, Browning Hi-Power. Webley Mk.IV at my club. Unfortunately my club (also a gun shop) was closing down due to the impact on their business. There were no other clubs in my area at that time, so I had to take the compensation route on them and my sweet S&W 586

I used the to money to buy rifles and black powder revolvers. LOTS of them.

Apparently the legislation was to tackle firearm crime and make the UK a safer place.
It didn't change anything. Criminals still obtain modern firearms and commit crime with them.
Law-abiding firearm owners still obey the law and don't shoot people.
In the very rare shooting incidents that have involved legally owned firearms the root cause has almost always been that the police didn't perform their background checks with due diligence.

But assuming that wasn't the case ... what the government did, in effect, was to take short range firearms from owners hands and offer them the opportunity to buy much higher powered long range firearms. For every 'slot' (permission to own a handgun) you had on your certificate you automatically were entitled to transfer it to a rifle calibre of your choice. And they can all be stored at home.

So now you have a lot of citizens holding WWI & WWII bolt action military rifles and pistol calibre lever action rifles and every type of single shot mechanism available (semi-auto in anything other than .22 LR was banned in 1988). So how did that in any way make the UK a safer place (if you subscribe to the BS behind it)?

Eh. Sorry. You got me started!
Ask any Brit firearm owner about being scapegoated for the failings of Scottish police (see Dunblane), the loss of property, their sport, and livelihoods and it'll go down a similar path. At length.

Thanks! I seem to recall a limit on the amount of loaded cartridge ammunition one could possess in their home - 200rds per caliber.
Is there a similar limit on black powder components for C&B revolvers.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

drobs said:
Thanks! I seem to recall a limit on the amount of loaded cartridge ammunition one could possess in their home - 200rds per caliber.
Is there a similar limit on black powder components for C&B revolvers.

The underlying core of firearm ownership is being able to show "good reason".
So 'because I want one / they're cool / self defence" won't cut it (except in Northern Ireland on the latter point).

So target shooting, hunting, pest control, humane destruction are all valid reasons.
And so it is with the amount of ammunition you can hold.
If you shoot a lot (I'll easily put 500 rounds down range every week or so) then the local police won't object to me owning quite a substantial amount of ammunition.
Were I an occasional shooter, say a four or five visits to Bisley per year kind of shooter then they may question my wanting a thousand rounds of ammunition in each calibre of rifle.

The bottom line is if you use it a lot you can possess a lot.

Oh, and black powder requires a licence to purchase, possess, and transfer (take it places). It's free and so long as you have a secure wooden box to store it in and good reason to have it (covered by owning a muzzle loader) you'll get it.
There's a limit (I think it's something like 15kg ) but so long as you have a big enough box to secure it safely you can have it.
2kg will last me about a year and I shoot a lot.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

Deleted multi-post.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

Deleted multi-post.

Dark Skies · Feb 3, 2022

"The bolt spring is too heavy ( bolt head moving metal), spread the bolt arms slightly (probably sliding off the side of the cam instead of the front) and as Hawg points out, the bolt should hit the "approach" at least a bolt width before the notch.
Before you do anything with the bolt, make sure the cylinder lock-up AND full cock happens simultaneously (you may not need to do anything to the bolt)!! If lockup is just after full cock, stretching the hand will advance the cyl rotation which will (in effect) correct the bolt timing you already have.
Mike"

I've had time to have a better look. So here's what I've done:
When drawing back the hammer the cylinder rotates (obviously). There's a click as it reaches half cock (bolt fully retracted into the frame) I continue drawing back the hammer, there is a slight click as the bolt hits the very tip of the acorn shaped guide (see picture of the witness peening). The bolt rides the full length of the guide as the hammer is drawn towards full cock. The bolts slips into the cylinder stop. The trigger locks into the fully cocked position. It appears to be simultaneous. The cylinder won't rotate any further by hand so it seems to be locking up as one would hope.

I've repeated this looking down the barrel with an inspection torch and watching to see if the cylinder aligns with the barrel at the same time the hammer reaches full cock. It does.
So in your opinion what's my best approach here?

44 Dave · Feb 4, 2022

Like Mike said "stretch the hand". This will get the cylinder rotated further before the bolt is dropped. Slightly smooth the bolt edge that is digging in and shape it a little to centre the approach slot a little better. With the cylinder out of the way it shouldn't take much more than 4 lb.to push the bolt flush in the water table.

Roverguy · Feb 4, 2022

That’s a nice looking revolver and if it’s all that Her Majesty’s government will allow you to have, then have at it! Cap and ball revolvers are great fun and can be scary accurate, so other than the slower loading and that bit more cleaning, they are a joy. Have fun.

Jackrabbit1957 · Feb 4, 2022

Bolt drop is a bit early, remove a tiny amount from the tip of the left bolt leg. I would also look at the shape of the bolt head as well to see if it has a bur that's causing the peening. I would suggest getting Jerry Khunhausen's shop manual on the Colt SAA revolvers before getting too carried away. With your background in metal working you will have no problem getting it tuned in.

Dark Skies · Feb 4, 2022

Jackrabbit1957 said:
Bolt drop is a bit early, remove a tiny amount from the tip of the left bolt leg. I would also look at the shape of the bolt head as well to see if it has a bur that's causing the peening. I would suggest getting Jerry Khunhausen's shop manual on the Colt SAA revolvers before getting too carried away. With your background in metal working you will have no problem getting it tuned in.

Funny you should mention this book - I ordered it a few weeks ago. Should be winging its way to my letter box right about ... now.
OK it hasn't arrived yet. Soon though. Hopefully.

Dark Skies · Feb 4, 2022

Roverguy said:
That’s a nice looking revolver and if it’s all that Her Majesty’s government will allow you to have, then have at it! Cap and ball revolvers are great fun and can be scary accurate, so other than the slower loading and that bit more cleaning, they are a joy. Have fun.

I guess we should be 'grateful' that they leave BP revolvers alone as Colt and Remington designed them. The semi-auto ban on anything other than .22 meant that classic designs such as the AK could only be sold as single shot, straight bolt actions.
This is my Saiga. Looks the biz, right? Straight pull single shot. That's like non-alcoholic beer. Or decaffeinated coffee. Or Tantric sex.

Jim Watson · Feb 4, 2022

How does the imitation 1973 compare to a period correct cap and ball of Colt or Remington design?

Have you looked at the 209 and wadcutter revolvers from Westlake?

Dark Skies · Feb 4, 2022

Jim Watson said:
How does the imitation 1973 compare to a period correct cap and ball of Colt or Remington design?

Have you looked at the 209 and wadcutter revolvers from Westlake?

I almost bought a Westlake .357 muzzle loader a few years back. T'was a tad pricey but came with a lot of associated bits and bobs. Unfortunately I was pipped to the post by another buyer. May he rot in hell.

I currently have five BP revolvers - A Ruger Old army (which is a bit Whitney revolver-ish, I guess, with modern lock-work). That's the dog's bollocks in accuracy. It's the gun I use for competitions.

I'd say this SAA was next in line for accuracy. Even though the foresight is too tall for our range I was getting on paper right from the get go with 15 grains of BP and .454 ball. And the balls were within the span of my hand without really trying. I was basically plinking. I have a good feeling fabout this one. I'm thinking I might put a 1860 trigger guard and grips on for a better fit in my large mitt. It may even be up for my competition use.

After that I'd rate my Pietta 1851 Navy. I love it to bits but I have to really concentrate in getting everything together to get consistent accuracy. That's on me though.

I have an Uberti 1849 which would be fine across a card table but at 25 yards ... I hit the target but it looks like I've taken a shotgun to it. in terms of grouping.

Then there's my Pietta New Model Army. - originally with the 7 5/8" barrel. It was dreadful. No amount of faffing around with loads of sight work could get that to reliably hit the target at 25 yards. Maybe I'd hit a barn door with it. Sometimes I'd hit paper, sometimes I'd hit the target next to mine. It was crap. They seem to be a case of you get good uns and bad uns. Mine was the latter.
On the plus side I didn't mind cutting the barrel down to about 5" and tinkering with it because it was a gnat's cock within being scrapped. Amazingly accuracy improved to about the same as the 1849 and I started to like it again....

Dark Skies · Mar 2, 2022

I've discovered that the reflected light, just as the rear of the blade begins to round forward, is pretty much cock on for aiming at 25 yards with a light charge of 18 grains of BP.

Dark Skies · Apr 8, 2022

Getting there!

Before, I was using the glint of light reflecting off the rear of the foresight (as it rounded towards the top) for point of aim. You can see that glint on the foresight in the pic above.
I've filed the foresight down now. I'm happy.

woodnbow · Apr 8, 2022

45 Dragoon said:
Ok, the ratchet isn't against the recoil ring, it's the material between the nipples. So, the ratchet doesn't touch anything.

In the case of the '73 cap gun, you'll notice the VAST flat area at the back of the cylinder in Somebody's picture above . . . THAT contacts the recoil shield. The ratchet has its own recess just like the cartridge revolver.

So, there ya go.

Mike

My apologies !!!
Ok, so I just happen to have a '73 percussion S.A. in the shop and I have it wrong!! The ratchet is in fact what supports the cyl. during recoil (don't trust an old man's memory!! Lol)!! The difference is in the thickness of the ratchet teeth. They are quite substantial compared to a normal cartridge cylinder ratchet.

So, there I go !!! Lol

View attachment 1056107

Notice how "robust " the teeth are on the cap cylinder. The example I have is by ASM.
I suspect the "saving grace" would be more shallow chambers . . . at least that's what it looks like to me. If that's the case, that may be why the teeth look "less robust" in Somebody's pic above . . . obviously a different manufacturer.

Wow what beautiful machining! :scrutiny:

Cap & Ball 'Colt' 1873 SAA

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