Took new shooter handgun shopping at Cabelas, big mistake

It sadly works the other way around far too often. People come into the LGS, handle the guns, make a decision, then go to the big box stores to save $25.

bigpower491 said:

So I have a young lady friend who wants to get into shooting and eventually get to concealed carry.

She's leaning towards a Glock 48, with consideration to a 23. I'm a Smith owner when it comes to semis, but one can't really go wrong with a Glock, and I think she is making a good choice in that respect.

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I helped countless number of family/friends/coworkers/neighbors and their friends select pistols for HD/SD purposes, especially female shooters.

What I found best was to actually have them test fire the pistol considered for purchase because that small "cute" looking compact/subcompact pistols would muzzle flip and not allow them to place holes on POA (Missing your threat target in defensive shooting situation is not going to help in real life situation).

So I have them dry fire while watching the front sight and select the ones that they didn't move the front sight when hammer/striker was released (Some needed training on proper grip/trigger control to not jerk the grip/pistol and I mentioned some pistols needed break-in of trigger to steady the front sight) and choose the pistol that produced the smallest group on target while shooting fast. (Selecting pistol that doesn't move the front sight when dry fired out of the box definitely helps produce smaller groups even before break-in of trigger)

Not surprisingly, they found small 380Auto/9mm/40S&W/45ACP compact/subcompacts to have snappy recoil and difficult to shoot accurately. Many found single stack 45ACP 1911 grips to be comfortable and easier to produce smaller groups faster. To surprise of many husbands/boyfriends, caliber wasn't much of an issue. Both my wife and sister with smaller hands really liked M&P40 and M&P45 with small grip inserts (sister ended up taking my M&P40 to shoot matches) and wife and daughter are deadly accurate with Glock 22/23. Of course EVERYBODY likes 1911 trigger but too heavy for carry for some.

I have taught point shooting/defensive shooting to many family/friends/coworkers and even elderly shooters do well with point shooting 1911s/M&Ps/Glocks. My latest group for point shooting instruction was husband and wife and their friend in their 60s who grew up shooting revolvers. After husband and friend did OK point shooting at 5 yards with my Glock 22/23 and 40-9mm conversion barrels, they were shocked when wife with small hands produced point shooting groups half their size FAST. They all ended up getting Glock 19s for concealed carry.

When a girlfriend of neighbor in her mid 20s wanted to get carry pistol after being robbed at gunpoint, we had her shoot several 9mm/40S&W/45ACP compact to fullsize pistols. To both of our surprise, she shot Glock 23 the best, fastest even with 40S&W factory rounds. After reshooting other pistols, she grabbed the Glock 23 to shoot again and said, "I want this".

bigpower491 said:

consideration to a 23

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Nice thing about Glock 23 is with 40-9mm conversion barrel, you can practice with cheaper 9mm ammunition (Newer generation 40S&W magazines will even feed 9mm rounds reliably).

Sportsman's Warehouse now has the locks, but the clerk will remove it for you without issue. Much better policy. I guess somebody at a Bass Pro or Cabela's asked a clerk to unlock a gun, dropped in a concealed round of ammo, and offed themselves at the gun counter- hence, Johnny Morris' current edict. Everyone else's customer experience is worse for it, but they don't care, as the corporate liability lawyers run the roost.

I would concur with @LiveLife.

Find yourself an indoor range and spend $100 for range fees and ammo for a couple different types of handguns for her to try and shoot with. This expense isn't only going towards seeing what fits her for purchase but gives you or an instructor a bit of time with her on fundamentals of safety, handgun control and shooting.

There are good options with the main competitors in the CCW space for some upgrades that would help with recoil. I think a Glock 48 with a Tungsten guide rod would be a great option for a women. The heavier guide rod would minimize some muzzle flip and also create a greater mass to the lower frame helping with any limp wristing problems. This is not a fix for poor grip control but every little bit helps.

bigpower491 said:

So I have a young lady friend who wants to get into shooting and eventually get to concealed carry. Hopefully I'm starting her down the right path learning the fundamentals on dad's old single six.
Took her to the Cabelas in the city last night to look at what she wants to get into, a semi auto 9 or possibly a 40. Of course, I thought taking her there would be a good choice, as we all know those big box usually have a huge inventory of nearly everything made today. She's leaning towards a Glock 48, with consideration to a 23. I'm a Smith owner when it comes to semis, but one can't really go wrong with a Glock, and I think she is making a good choice in that respect.
Now I guess this will show you fine folks about how long it's been since I've been looking at firearms at one of those places. Every damn one of those handguns in the cases had a trigger lock on it, and the kid behind the counter said no, we can't take it off for you. Ok, so how does one get a real feel for their potential purchase? She wasn't really thrilled with that, then she asked my opinion on whether she should buy. All I could do is smile and say if this is what you would really like, then wait til tomorrow when I can check with my mom and pop shop and see if he can get one.
Yes the big ones usually have em all, and I realize that that's corporate policy, but unless I can really handle it, without some funky plastic lock obstructing my hold on it, then it's a no sale for me.
She's gonna try one of my 40s this weekend to get a final on caliber. But I'll guarantee her first handgun won't come from a big box store

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Yes, I was at my local Sportsman's Warehouse, and they had a trigger lock on all the handguns. I asked the clerk if I could dry fire a few, and he said we weren’t allowed to take the trigger locks off. No more dry firing!

bigpower491 said:

So I have a young lady friend who wants to get into shooting and eventually get to concealed carry. Hopefully I'm starting her down the right path learning the fundamentals on dad's old single six.
Took her to the Cabelas in the city last night to look at what she wants to get into, a semi auto 9 or possibly a 40. Of course, I thought taking her there would be a good choice, as we all know those big box usually have a huge inventory of nearly everything made today. She's leaning towards a Glock 48, with consideration to a 23. I'm a Smith owner when it comes to semis, but one can't really go wrong with a Glock, and I think she is making a good choice in that respect.
Now I guess this will show you fine folks about how long it's been since I've been looking at firearms at one of those places. Every damn one of those handguns in the cases had a trigger lock on it, and the kid behind the counter said no, we can't take it off for you. Ok, so how does one get a real feel for their potential purchase? She wasn't really thrilled with that, then she asked my opinion on whether she should buy. All I could do is smile and say if this is what you would really like, then wait til tomorrow when I can check with my mom and pop shop and see if he can get one.
Yes the big ones usually have em all, and I realize that that's corporate policy, but unless I can really handle it, without some funky plastic lock obstructing my hold on it, then it's a no sale for me.
She's gonna try one of my 40s this weekend to get a final on caliber. But I'll guarantee her first handgun won't come from a big box store

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A first time gun buyer needs to be made well aware of saftey or no saftey models. That seems to be a major return reason for women... I could care less about brand loyalty but certain features matter to some people.

.455_Hunter said:

Sportsman's Warehouse now has the locks, but the clerk will remove it for you without issue. Much better policy. I guess somebody at a Bass Pro or Cabela's asked a clerk to unlock a gun, dropped in a concealed round of ammo, and offed themselves at the gun counter- hence, Johnny Morris' current edict. Everyone else's customer experience is worse for it, but they don't care, as the corporate liability lawyers run the roost.

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My local Sportsman’s Warehouse refused to remove the trigger locks. No more dry firing!

vindag said:

My local Sportsman’s Warehouse refused to remove the trigger locks. No more dry firing!

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Weird- Definitely NOT the policy at the Colorado stores. I was fondling a pistol at the Thornton location just a week or two ago without issue.

.455_Hunter said:

Weird- Definitely NOT the policy at the Colorado stores. I was fondling a pistol at the Thornton location just a week or two ago without issue.

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They won’t remove them at the Loveland store either.

Dan-O said:

They won’t remove them at the Loveland store either.

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I stand corrected then. What a cluster- I thought Sportsman's was better than that.

bigpower491 said:

Every damn one of those handguns in the cases had a trigger lock on it, and the kid behind the counter said no, we can't take it off for you.

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My only comment to the guy behind the counter would be, "Thank You very much, I'll buy it somewhere else." Do an about face and find the exit.

"Hi Mr. Car Salesman. That's a lovely Cadillac there, but how am I supposed to test drive it with a steering wheel lock on it?"

"You're not."

I don't fault dealers (including the big box stores) for not allowing customers to dry fire the guns. This saves wear and tear on the guns, plus there could be potential safety issues (a customer slipping in a live round, for example). Lots of sketchy people come in to "kick the tires."

If you want to check the trigger pull, ask a friend to try his, or read the numerous reviews online. An example is the Ruger Mark IV .22. Everybody knows it has a lousy trigger pull out of the box, but that it's something that can be corrected. (Dry firing this gun is not recommended, even after you buy it.)

bigpower491 said:

So I have a young lady friend who wants to get into shooting and eventually get to concealed carry. Hopefully I'm starting her down the right path learning the fundamentals on dad's old single six.
Took her to the Cabelas in the city last night to look at what she wants to get into, a semi auto 9 or possibly a 40. Of course, I thought taking her there would be a good choice, as we all know those big box usually have a huge inventory of nearly everything made today. She's leaning towards a Glock 48, with consideration to a 23. I'm a Smith owner when it comes to semis, but one can't really go wrong with a Glock, and I think she is making a good choice in that respect.
Now I guess this will show you fine folks about how long it's been since I've been looking at firearms at one of those places. Every damn one of those handguns in the cases had a trigger lock on it, and the kid behind the counter said no, we can't take it off for you. Ok, so how does one get a real feel for their potential purchase? She wasn't really thrilled with that, then she asked my opinion on whether she should buy. All I could do is smile and say if this is what you would really like, then wait til tomorrow when I can check with my mom and pop shop and see if he can get one.
Yes the big ones usually have em all, and I realize that that's corporate policy, but unless I can really handle it, without some funky plastic lock obstructing my hold on it, then it's a no sale for me.
She's gonna try one of my 40s this weekend to get a final on caliber. But I'll guarantee her first handgun won't come from a big box store

Click to expand...

The Glock 48 isn't a bad choice for an all purpose gun. I carry one and like it alot. The Glock 23 is a terrible choice. I'd steer her towards a Glock 19 in 9mm instead.

bigpower491 said:

So I have a young lady friend who wants to get into shooting and eventually get to concealed carry. Hopefully I'm starting her down the right path learning the fundamentals on dad's old single six.
Took her to the Cabelas in the city last night to look at what she wants to get into, a semi auto 9 or possibly a 40. Of course, I thought taking her there would be a good choice, as we all know those big box usually have a huge inventory of nearly everything made today. She's leaning towards a Glock 48, with consideration to a 23. I'm a Smith owner when it comes to semis, but one can't really go wrong with a Glock, and I think she is making a good choice in that respect.
Now I guess this will show you fine folks about how long it's been since I've been looking at firearms at one of those places. Every damn one of those handguns in the cases had a trigger lock on it, and the kid behind the counter said no, we can't take it off for you. Ok, so how does one get a real feel for their potential purchase? She wasn't really thrilled with that, then she asked my opinion on whether she should buy. All I could do is smile and say if this is what you would really like, then wait til tomorrow when I can check with my mom and pop shop and see if he can get one.
Yes the big ones usually have em all, and I realize that that's corporate policy, but unless I can really handle it, without some funky plastic lock obstructing my hold on it, then it's a no sale for me.
She's gonna try one of my 40s this weekend to get a final on caliber. But I'll guarantee her first handgun won't come from a big box store

Click to expand...

Good for you for helping her out. The trigger lock or just a zip tie is seen at all our gunshows an almost every store uses a lock. My mom and pop, now just a pop shop as mom passed away late last year, never has used either. I always ask if it OK a gun to dry fire a gun and the answer has always been yes. He is a little higher than the big box stores but there are none of them close enough to justify the cost of driving to them. He sells a lot of guns.

shafter said:

The Glock 48 isn't a bad choice for an all purpose gun. I carry one and like it alot. The Glock 23 is a terrible choice. I'd steer her towards a Glock 19 in 9mm instead.

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This.
I cannot imagine a single reason why a new shooter would consider a Glock 23. While its true you can get aftermarket 9x19 barrels, I just dont see that as a good argument for a new shooter in choosing a handgun. I don't even see it as a good argument for an experienced shooter.

While the .40 S&W isn't dead or obsolete, it most certainly is becoming an albatross along with .357sig and .45GAP. Not because those cartridges are inferior, but because sales of .40 are abysmal compared to 9x19. Lack of sales of .40 pistols impacts the ammunition market and less demand means higher prices for those cartridges.

A new shooter should be putting as many rounds downrange as they can afford, and thats easier to do with 9x19. There is a reason the FBI, Secret Service and others went back to 9x19.

Local Cabelas will take off the stupid trigger lock, let you dry fire with assistance, in the gun library, into a portable bullet trap, if you’re buying the gun and complain about it. It’s a PITA. One of the new Bass Pro policies. Very surprised Sportsman’s has adopted a similar rule. I haven’t personally checked my local Sportsman’s yet.

dogtown tom said:

This.
I cannot imagine a single reason why a new shooter would consider a Glock 23. While its true you can get aftermarket 9x19 barrels, I just dont see that as a good argument for a new shooter in choosing a handgun. I don't even see it as a good argument for an experienced shooter.

While the .40 S&W isn't dead or obsolete, it most certainly is becoming an albatross along with .357sig and .45GAP. Not because those cartridges are inferior, but because sales of .40 are abysmal compared to 9x19. Lack of sales of .40 pistols impacts the ammunition market and less demand means higher prices for those cartridges.

A new shooter should be putting as many rounds downrange as they can afford, and thats easier to do with 9x19. There is a reason the FBI, Secret Service and others went back to 9x19.

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Yes I agree, but for me the main reason is that a Glock 23 is going to beat their hands up pretty bad. Not a good situation for a new shooter.

AlexanderA said:

I don't fault dealers (including the big box stores) for not allowing customers to dry fire the guns. This saves wear and tear on the guns, plus there could be potential safety issues (a customer slipping in a live round, for example). Lots of sketchy people come in to "kick the tires."

If you want to check the trigger pull, ask a friend to try his, or read the numerous reviews online. An example is the Ruger Mark IV .22. Everybody knows it has a lousy trigger pull out of the box, but that it's something that can be corrected. (Dry firing this gun is not recommended, even after you buy it.)

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We just got a bunch of "new" guns on our California Handgun Roster. So, I wanted to check them out. I went to Sportsmans Warehouse, and they had trigger locks on all the handguns. Went down the street to Turner's Outdoorsman, no trigger locks, but no new roster guns. So, I asked the clerk, and he said all the new roster guns are sold. He says I'll bring them from the back so you can see them. One by one he brings me a Sig P365, Shield Plus, Hellcat Pro, and M&P Compact. Mind you these are someone's paid for gun, waiting on the 10-day waiting period. I fondle, and dry fire all these guns several time, with the clerk's encouragement. It dawned on me, that if I buy the gun here, someone is going to be fondling, and dry firing my gun.

The rental range here has a deal, try 5 guns for $30 plus their ammo.

Or Test Drive, one gun, 10 rounds for $20 which is deducted from the price if you buy the gun.

Might want to take her to a range that rents guns so she can shoot one before deciding on what to get.

BreechFace said:

I would concur with @LiveLife.

Find yourself an indoor range and spend $100 for range fees and ammo for a couple different types of handguns for her to try and shoot with. This expense isn't only going towards seeing what fits her for purchase but gives you or an instructor a bit of time with her on fundamentals of safety, handgun control and shooting.

There are good options with the main competitors in the CCW space for some upgrades that would help with recoil. I think a Glock 48 with a Tungsten guide rod would be a great option for a women. The heavier guide rod would minimize some muzzle flip and also create a greater mass to the lower frame helping with any limp wristing problems. This is not a fix for poor grip control but every little bit helps.

Click to expand...

Wow so in your opinion the tungsten guide rods actually work? Hmmm cause my Gen 2 21 recoils like a 9mm with 230gr ball with the stock recoil spring. So a tungsten guide rod and aftermarket spring would lessen that even more?

bangswitch said:

My only comment to the guy behind the counter would be, "Thank You very much, I'll buy it somewhere else." Do an about face and find the exit.

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Why do you want to make life harder for the guy at the low end of the food chain who doesn't have a choice?

He's just doing what corporate told him and it's quite likely that he could be fired for disobeying that directive.

He also doesn't care if you buy it elsewhere because he's going to get paid whether you buy or not