45acp primer test, part three...

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ballman6711

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Part one can be found here:

45acp Primer Test Part 1

I promised to do a primer test a few weeks ago, so here it is (part 1). All rounds were loaded with my usual load which is as follows: 5.4gr W-231 (all charges weighed on RCBS 505, scale leveled before adding powder) Acme 185gr swc Winchester LPP Mixed brass 1.245" OAL .968~.9685" Crimp I...
www.thehighroad.org

Part two can be found here:

45acp primer test, part 2

This is part 2 of my 45acp primer test. Part 1 is linked below. https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/45acp-primer-test-part-1.924488/ The tested load remains the same, as listed below: 5.4gr W-231 Acme 185gr SWC Various spp and lpp Mixed brass 1.245" OAL Crimp .468~.4685" Today's...
www.thehighroad.org

And now for the third and final part. I finally got around to shooting my small primer 45acp ladder test with the Fiocchi primers. For anyone not wanting to read parts 1 or 2 I had problems with my normal 45acp large primer load using the Fiocchi small pistol primers. They all ignited but I don't think they had enough brisance to completely ignite my powder. My 1911 had failed to cycle on most shots turning it into a single shot gun. In fairness my normal load is a rather light target load.

chris
 
So my test today was done in similar conditions as the first two. The temp was a bit warmer today at 40F vs. the mid 30's of the previous tests and very damp or even a light mist coming down. The gun was dirty and was not oiled before going to the range. I wanted the test to be as consistent with the previous two as possible.

First I shot a bunch of random ammo through the gun to get comfortable and ensure I was holding properly. Basically a few rounds left of my reloads in this box, a few in that box, etc.... All of these random rounds were large primer rounds, bullets were 230gr Hornady XTP's, 185gr Nosler Custom Competion, and my usual 185gr Acme coated swc's, as well as a handful (maybe twenty) of Federal 230gr fmj factory ammo. All rounds fired and cycled the gun as usual, even my light Acme target rounds.

Then I started on my small primer Fiocchi ladder test. First I fired the remaining six rounds from the "problem" load. 5.4gr W231 with Acme 185gr swc at an OAL of 1.245~1.247".

All six rounds fired. All six rounds failed to cycle my gun. Five were caught as the slide was closing, and one remained in the chamber. So five rounds almost had enough oomph to cycle the slide and eject, and one didn't have enough oomph to even begin to eject. Burnt powder was visible and the cases were extremely sooty.

Ladder test in my next post.

chris
 
My ladder test was identical to my 5.4gr load, except using 5.5, 5.6, 5.8, 6.0, and 6.2 grains of W231. All other aspects of the load was the same. My index card says I loaded these on 10-30-2023. I only had four at each charge because when I loaded them that was all the small primer brass I had left, and this was only intended to be a function test and not an accuracy test.

5.5gr: All rounds cycled the gun but dropped within inches of where I was shooting. I would call them mouse farts but they felt like I was shooting 22lr in a conversion slide. This load looked promising, and I thought it might be right on the edge of not enough powder.

5.6gr: Three of the four cycled, and also landed within inches of me. One round got caught as the slide was closing.

5.8gr: All rounds cycled fine. Ejection was interesting. Even though it was only four rounds, two went past the edge of the bench around 3 o'clock, one came back at me, and one went forward between 1 and 2 o'clock. I found it interesting because this gun ejects empties very consistently in the same direction and about the same distance. This told me the loads were still a bit light, OR the primers were inconsistent, which is unlikely but possible. The brass had some soot, but not what I would call abnormal.

6.0gr: This load was pretty good. Granted it was only four rounds, but ejection was very consistent at 3~4 o'clock. I didn't pay attention to ejection distance. Recoil was about what I expected from a 3" 45acp 1911, and certainly a bit more than my normal light target loads, but it didn't feel uncomfortable or excessive at all.

6.2gr: This load was certainly stout, although I wouldn't call it excessive. Hodgdon's data shows a max of 6.3gr and about 19K psi, so even given variations in powder lots and individual firearms I would think I was still in normal 45acp territory, and not +P range. Ejection was flat and consistent at 3~4 o'clock. Recoil was easily controllable, but more than I would want to subject this aluminum frame gun to on a regular basis. I think it would be fine in a steel frame 1911, or maybe an aluminum frame 1911 with a longer slide.

chris
 
So my conclusion is that I need more testing, I'm thinking 5.7~6.1 grains. I may make ten of each, my normal test amount, or maybe even twenty of each if I can find and separate enough small primer brass. I could probably just say 5.9~6.0gr would be good and call it a day, but I would kick myself for not trying them each for accuracy and instead just picking a charge and saying it's good enough.

I'm honestly not good enough to tell the difference between a tenth of a grain of powder, but it makes me feel better which makes me shoot better.:p

Hope you all enjoyed my primer tests, and I also hope it helps someone in the future. All results are using my gun and my lots of components, and may or may not be similar to your results.

chris
 
I've learned with my WST loads I can run 4.0gr with Win primers but need 4.1gr with CCI or Fed primers propelling the Zero 185gr SWCHP to not risk alibis in sustained fire. I haven't tried the Fiocchi primers but wish they made lead free LPP for me to try. Lead free to push the swaged lead, traditionally lubed projectiles :D

Thanks for sharing!
 
ballman6711 said:
My ladder test was identical to my 5.4gr load, except using 5.5, 5.6, 5.8, 6.0, and 6.2 grains of W231. All other aspects of the load was the same. My index card says I loaded these on 10-30-2023. I only had four at each charge because when I loaded them that was all the small primer brass I had left, and this was only intended to be a function test and not an accuracy test.

5.5gr: All rounds cycled the gun but dropped within inches of where I was shooting. I would call them mouse farts but they felt like I was shooting 22lr in a conversion slide. This load looked promising, and I thought it might be right on the edge of not enough powder.

5.6gr: Three of the four cycled, and also landed within inches of me. One round got caught as the slide was closing.

5.8gr: All rounds cycled fine. Ejection was interesting. Even though it was only four rounds, two went past the edge of the bench around 3 o'clock, one came back at me, and one went forward between 1 and 2 o'clock. I found it interesting because this gun ejects empties very consistently in the same direction and about the same distance. This told me the loads were still a bit light, OR the primers were inconsistent, which is unlikely but possible. The brass had some soot, but not what I would call abnormal.

6.0gr: This load was pretty good. Granted it was only four rounds, but ejection was very consistent at 3~4 o'clock. I didn't pay attention to ejection distance. Recoil was about what I expected from a 3" 45acp 1911, and certainly a bit more than my normal light target loads, but it didn't feel uncomfortable or excessive at all.

6.2gr: This load was certainly stout, although I wouldn't call it excessive. Hodgdon's data shows a max of 6.3gr and about 19K psi, so even given variations in powder lots and individual firearms I would think I was still in normal 45acp territory, and not +P range. Ejection was flat and consistent at 3~4 o'clock. Recoil was easily controllable, but more than I would want to subject this aluminum frame gun to on a regular basis. I think it would be fine in a steel frame 1911, or maybe an aluminum frame 1911 with a longer slide.

chris
Click to expand...
Another great test.

I need some Fiocchi primers.

Wish I could help more but I shoot all steel government model 1911s and only with 230gr RN & 200gr SWC. With that in mind, a mid-5gr load of W231 is about as high as I typically go.

I've never shot your bullet nor an 3" barrel nor a 6.2gr load but I bet it gets your attention.

BTW, to me given the moderate or lighter loads I shoot, W231 is always at least a little sooty.
 
ballman6711 said:
So my test today was done in similar conditions as the first two. The temp was a bit warmer today at 40F vs. the mid 30's of the previous tests and very damp or even a light mist coming down. The gun was dirty and was not oiled before going to the range. I wanted the test to be as consistent with the previous two as possible.

First I shot a bunch of random ammo through the gun to get comfortable and ensure I was holding properly. Basically a few rounds left of my reloads in this box, a few in that box, etc.... All of these random rounds were large primer rounds, bullets were 230gr Hornady XTP's, 185gr Nosler Custom Competion, and my usual 185gr Acme coated swc's, as well as a handful (maybe twenty) of Federal 230gr fmj factory ammo. All rounds fired and cycled the gun as usual, even my light Acme target rounds.

Then I started on my small primer Fiocchi ladder test. First I fired the remaining six rounds from the "problem" load. 5.4gr W231 with Acme 185gr swc at an OAL of 1.245~1.247".

All six rounds fired. All six rounds failed to cycle my gun. Five were caught as the slide was closing, and one remained in the chamber. So five rounds almost had enough oomph to cycle the slide and eject, and one didn't have enough oomph to even begin to eject. Burnt powder was visible and the cases were extremely sooty.

Ladder test in my next post.

chris
Click to expand...
That failure to cycle at 5.4gr is a challenge that cannot go unmet:) Need me some Fiochhi.
 
ballman6711 said:
So my conclusion is that I need more testing, I'm thinking 5.7~6.1 grains. I may make ten of each, my normal test amount, or maybe even twenty of each if I can find and separate enough small primer brass. I could probably just say 5.9~6.0gr would be good and call it a day, but I would kick myself for not trying them each for accuracy and instead just picking a charge and saying it's good enough.

I'm honestly not good enough to tell the difference between a tenth of a grain of powder, but it makes me feel better which makes me shoot better.:p

Hope you all enjoyed my primer tests, and I also hope it helps someone in the future. All results are using my gun and my lots of components, and may or may not be similar to your results.

chris
Click to expand...
This sounds a lot like position sensitivity. Try the low ladder again but incline the muzzle before firing to shift the powder down into the cup well. See if it is possible to run two or three in a row with good cycling.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
This sounds a lot like position sensitivity. Try the low ladder again but incline the muzzle before firing to shift the powder down into the cup well. See if it is possible to run two or three in a row with good cycling.
Click to expand...
That's a good idea and one I hadn't thought of. It could be position sensitivity although I haven't had that in the past with this powder.

I'll give it a try and update this thread when I get it done. Might be awhile though.

What charge weights would you like me to try?

chris
 
Blue68f100 said:
If your using mix brass you need to switch to a single mfg for testing. If you look at the flash holes some will be different size which can impact ignition of the powder.
Click to expand...
I'll be sure to do that this time. I think I have enough of the same brand of small primer brass to do a small ladder test of maybe 40~50 rounds.

chris
 
ballman6711 said:
That's a good idea and one I hadn't thought of. It could be position sensitivity although I haven't had that in the past with this powder.

I'll give it a try and update this thread when I get it done. Might be awhile though.

What charge weights would you like me to try?

chris
Click to expand...
I was thinking about the two that had problems with slide velocity. 5.4-5.6gr.
 
Planning a range trip this morning, snow on the ground and temps in the mid 20's.

I loaded thirty rounds using the Fiochhi spp, ten each at 5.4, 5.5, and 5.6gr of W-231. I plan on doing a powder forward and powder back for five rounds of each charge weight. Once again, all charges were weighed on my balance beam scale. Brass was mixed head stamp. I'll post the results later today.

Since it's colder than when I did my last tests, the results may be different than previously.

chris
 
Regardless of the primer size, if I change primers, brass, or powder I generally rework the load up from scratch. Hot primers speed up and cooler primers slow down powder burn speed.

Too cool and all powder may not get burned especially on lower pressure loadings like 45ACP/45Colt/32 Long/38 Spl.

I prefer SPM or SR when loading 45acp or 45C with small primers then there is no question as to primer heat. You actually may need to lighten the powder charge w/ fast powders though as they will be hotter than with a cooler LPPs like federal or remingtons.

SPs do not have a problem setting off 357mag, 454 casul, 223, or even 6.5 CM.

I haven't tested myself but I'm fairly confident that if you do all the powder up and powder down test with LPP you would get similar results. The flash hole size is about or is the same size. Keep your flash holes clean and use a bulkier powder like A#5 and your variation should be reduced - that helps in the big 45C case for me anyway with large and small primers.

Also, take a fired case of the same length of LP and a SP type and fill each with water until the water rises above the case mouth. Now weight the water from each - if not the same then more may be going on than the primer size.

Personally I stay away from Fed, Rem, and Fioc SPPs as I have never gotten consistaint results with those primer types.
 
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Range report time. Temp was 26F, snow on the ground, shooting benches, and a bit of ice on the range. The creek beside the range was still flowing, so not too cold. When I first got there I put the gun on the bench (still in the padded case but open) and let it sit for about ten minutes while I chatted with my shooting buddy. I also put two magazines on the bench itself, which turned out to be a mistake. There must have been a thin layer of ice on the bench, and the magazines had been in my pocket where they had gotten warm. The result was that both magazines froze to the bench in the ten minutes or so that I was chatting. :thumbdown: I got them loose and learned not to do that again.

Next I shot the 5.4gr load with powder forward. Very accurate load, and very mild, and not a single failure to feed, fire, or eject. Every one of the five shots cycled the gun and it locked open on the last round. Next was five rounds with powder back and I had the same results. This really surprised me since I honestly expected the gun to fail to cycle, especially given the temperature. Ejection was weak with all ten rounds with the brass landing mostly on the bench beside me. Accuracy was pretty good, which is expected since this is my usual target load except with spp's.

Then I shot the 5.5gr load, first five powder forward and second five powder back. Three or four failed to cycle the slide and eject the round with the powder forward. The slide cycled enough to begin the ejection process but closed on the brass catching it half in and half out of the chamber. All of the powder back cycled fine, but again ejection was weak with the brass landing on the bench or very close to it. All of these were very accurate as well.

Finally the 5.6gr load. Every one with powder forward left the empty brass completely in the chamber. I had to rack the slide on every round, all five rounds. The final five were powder back, and every one cycled the slide 100%, throwing the brass just past the bench. All of these were accurate as well. Recoil was still relatively mild.

After this was done I began to shoot up some partial boxes of my reloads just to empty the boxes. One box had the exact same bullet, powder, and charge weight (5.4gr) with the only difference being lpp's. I thought I might have some issues due to the temperature, but every one fired and cycled my gun just fine with ejection being the usual 4~6'.

chris
 
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LiveLife said:
Thank you for the range report while braving the below freezing temperatures. 👍
Click to expand...
It wasn't that bad really. It's shaded but there wasn't any wind today which was a real blessing. My buddy and I were there for about two hours, and it had warmed up to a balmy 36F by the time we left.

My results have led me to conclude that these spp Fiochhi primers just don't have as much brisance as any of my other primers, small or large. The fact that I fired another 50~60 rounds after this test and they all functioned fine brought me to this conclusion. All the other rounds I fired today were with lpp's, although the loads and bullet weights varied (185gr and 230gr), and not one had a problem to cycle and they all ejected at least 4', with some (my mid/high charge hollow point loads) going about 8'. Everything was good and cold by the time I finished the test and started firing the other loads, so I don't believe that the temperature had anything to do with it, or at least had a minimal impact.

If anybody has any thoughts I'd love to hear them.

chris
 
My buddies in Ireland used to say "If you're gonna' be dumb you gotta be tough".

I never got back in the truck to warm up until I left, but I did put my hands in my pockets a couple of times. The wind is the real killer, and it's usually windy there. Like I said, a real blessing that the air was still.

Might go again next weekend, I'll have to see how things go.

chris
 
Verrrrrry Interesting! (Was that from Laugh In?).
You didn’t mention any chrono data which would have been useful. I usually get faster velocities, and all that implies when adding more powder. Your description of the semi-auto results suggests the inverse. The primer could be suspect but I was wondering if this batch of powder could be a contributing factor? Maybe a bit too much burn rate suppressant?
 
I went to the range recently when it was cold (southern cold, probably mid to upper 30s) I took a MR Buddy heater and placed it under the bench and was very glad I did, I got some looks while there but some WARMED up to it and used it a little when I was away from my bench.
 
lordpaxman said:
Verrrrrry Interesting! (Was that from Laugh In?).
You didn’t mention any chrono data which would have been useful. I usually get faster velocities, and all that implies when adding more powder. Your description of the semi-auto results suggests the inverse. The primer could be suspect but I was wondering if this batch of powder could be a contributing factor? Maybe a bit too much burn rate suppressant?
Click to expand...
“But not funny” was the rest of the line by the little guy doing a German accent and his name was…darn can’t remember

The results are confounding to someone like me—a casual indoor only shooter—someday I’ll be able to understand how a few degrees F could play such a role in ignition/burn.

I’m at range parking lot right now and at 9 sharp will go in to a nice warm indoor range and shoot lots of 45acp.

Edit: Arte Johnson was his name.

NRA range was packed--all 15 lanes full with more waiting. Forgot it was a holiday. Recovered all but one 45acp case.
 
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lordpaxman said:
Verrrrrry Interesting! (Was that from Laugh In?).
You didn’t mention any chrono data which would have been useful. I usually get faster velocities, and all that implies when adding more powder. Your description of the semi-auto results suggests the inverse. The primer could be suspect but I was wondering if this batch of powder could be a contributing factor? Maybe a bit too much burn rate suppressant?
Click to expand...
I don't have a chrono so I can't talk about velocities w/o it just being a guess.

I suppose this "batch" of powder could be a contributing factor, but I doubt it for a few reasons. First, the loads I shot yesterday after my test were using powder from the same bottle, and some of the rounds were the exact same "recipe" except for the use of spp vs. lpp. Second, when I did the primer test originally these same primers gave the same results. That test was using fourteen different types of primers from a few different brands and none of the other primers had issues cycling the gun in mid 30 degree temps. And lastly, I got several 1# jugs of this powder a few years ago, all the same lot #, and have never had a problem with this gun cycling until I got stupidly light with my powder charge or the one time I didn't clean the gun for about six hundred rounds (I did a torture test to see how long it would function before having problems).

Still an interesting thought about too much suppressant. That could be possible, but then all of these jugs would have the same problem.

chris
 
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