Respect (or lack there of) for older Gun Writers

The hunter, shooter, reloader, and patriot I am today at 79 is thanks to the old timers. I’m adding Roberts, Corbett, Skelton, Zutz, Wooters, Seyfreid, and Stack along with the greatest , Ruark. Although his experience is extensive I have no respect for Askins.
My biggest gripe is misuse of grammar and spelling by the new breed.
 
I have nothing but respect for Ayoob because he has spent his career giving us the benefits of other peoples experiences via his reporting and breakdowns of defensive shootings.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, I have little good to say about either Jeff Cooper or Charles Askins. My first exposure to Cooper was via his column in the back of Guns and Ammo magazine in the late 70’s when I was in high school. He epitomized the blowhard, that kind of guy who knows he is always right and makes fun of you when you disagree. Rather than admit he couldn’t master the trigger transition of a DA/SA auto he had to make up a derisive name “crunchenticker“ and make fun of it. That column was also full of hate for female cops, the 9mm, and probably a bunch of other stuff I’ve forgotten. However much he might have accomplished in his earlier career he was just a bitter, mean old man at the end.

Askins was even worse. He was a true psychopath. He loved killing people and telling stories about it.
 
Old Dog said:
Would you be so kind as to provide any examples? Especially since that is one of the sub-forums I frequent the most, yet still cannot recall nor find any comments calling into question the credibility of these gentlemen... (unless it was in 2005, a year most of which I was deployed).
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Too much through which to search. Do you doubt my statement?
 
Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:
What forum were you on? That is not the type of language I see anywhere, unless the forum is full of people trying to be edgy or that guy has mental issues.
I had to left one forum because although years of using it, the people there are honestly crazy.
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Could be FALfiles or AKFiles, although that’s a bit tame for over there.
 
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Dave DeLaurant said:
If you can find a copy, give Jim Foral's Gunwriters of Yesteryear a try sometime.

It's an anthology of the generation before the generation the OP's referring to -- writers like Stewart Edward White,, Charles Newton, Townsend Whelen, Ned Roberts, Edward Crossman, Charles Askins Sr., Ashley Haines and many others you may never have heard of.

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Hatcher is another one who draws tons of hate. I mean sure, he didn't have digital piezos and laser levels, so therefore the THOUSANDS of test trails he conducted must have been worthless and he had no idea what he was talkiing about....
 
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NIGHTLORD40K said:
Hatcher is another one who draws tons of hate. I mean sure, he didn't have digital piezos and laser levels, so therefore the THOUSANDS of test trails he conducted must have been worthless and he had no idea what he was talkiing about....
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Hatcher's work is commendable and many of his observations and findings have withstood the test of time. His 1935 book builds on and refines his 1927 book.
 
As a side note, let's be careful when we talk about Askins.  Senior was apparently a gentleman, a shotgunner, and a fine writer.  Junior was a lunatic. I waded through his autobiography and needed a shower afterwards - but there still were nuggets to be gleaned.

With regard to Cooper, I certainly see how people could be put off by him. He had the manner of a Stanford grad and history professor, and he also had a high opinion of himself and high expectations of those around him. I very much doubt we would have gotten along, but I did enjoy his command of the language and his vast experience. His rifle book was my Bible for several years. (And his detractors may enjoy knowing that I'm still a lousy rifleman. :rofl: )
 
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I always found Cooper entertaining, even when I disagreed with him. And I hold Ayoob in high regard. In addition to reading his material, I had opportunity to take his LFI I and II classes back when he was still in NH. The shooting instruction was good, and the legal content was excellent.
 
Some of the old gun writers were very good. We have to look at them through the double lenses of 1) what equipment they had to work with, and 2) the cultural and legal environment in which they worked. What is often forgotten about Jeff Cooper, for example, is that he did much of his writing during a period of unprecedented crime in the U.S. Even today, when we lament the larcenies, car jackings, random shootings, etc., we still enjoy a period of less crime than in the 1970s through the early 1990's (Google tells me the crime rate peaked in 1991).
 
Heir Kommt Die Sonne said:
I apparently am one of the youngest active members on this forum, right behind Bigblue94 and i personally, dont have any issue with Ayoob. I can tell he's been around for a while and like most defense instructors of his generation, focus heavily on the legal defense aspect of fights.
I don't know if I'm an exception but I really like the older wealth of information. It's stuff that isn't being done anymore, in that way, so I believe it's valuable to preserve that knowledge.
Elmer Keith, Jack O'connor I'm familiar with. Jeff Cooper is still regularly mentioned alot when it comes to handgun fighting. Maybe that's because I spend alot of time on this forum over others. I came here precisely because the people here were much more civil than in other places. I can disagree here and people don't argue, only share what their input is.
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You seem like you were raised in a home with two parents and they did a good job.
 
IIRC Ayoob wrote of Askins that he was the type of guy you probably wouldn't want to have a drink with, or get drunk with, but you'd want him to have your back when trouble came. Askins' biggest fault was that he was too candid, said out loud things that many of us think and feel. Psychopath ? Curious how someone fighting well armed bandits in a dark alley and admits to shooting them in the back is a psychopath, a sniper who shoots someone from 600 yards away is an incredible marksman. Askins said some of his editors told him to write controversial things to stir up interest, generate readers' letters. Bill Jordan noted that he advocated the auto for defense use only after his gun fighting days were over.
Cooper was also rather opinionated but he knew what he liked and didn't, what he felt worked and didn't . And he wrote well.
Biggest criticism of Ayoob is that he has admitted to never actually dropping the hammer on anyone, and coming from a small town in New Hampshire, not the same as being Jim Cirillo.
 
.38 Special said:
As a side note, let's be careful when we talk about Askins.  Senior was apparently a gentleman, a shotgunner, and a fine writer.  Junior was a lunatic. I waded through his autobiography and needed a shower afterwards - but there still were nuggets to be gleaned.

With regard to Cooper, I certainly see how people could be put off by him. He had the manner of a Stanford grad and history professor, and he also had a high opinion of himself and high expectations of those around him. I very much doubt we would have gotten along, but I did enjoy his command of the language and his vast experience. His rifle book was my Bible for several years. (And his detractors may enjoy knowing that I'm still a lousy rifleman. :rofl: )
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So, what you're saying is. He was a Marine. :neener:
 
BLACKHAWKNJ said:
IIRC Ayoob wrote of Askins that he was the type of guy you probably wouldn't want to have a drink with, or get drunk with, but you'd want him to have your back when trouble came. Askins' biggest fault was that he was too candid, said out loud things that many of us think and feel. Psychopath ? Curious how someone fighting well armed bandits in a dark alley and admits to shooting them in the back is a psychopath, a sniper who shoots someone from 600 yards away is an incredible marksman. Askins said some of his editors told him to write controversial things to stir up interest, generate readers' letters. Bill Jordan noted that he advocated the auto for defense use only after his gun fighting days were over.
Cooper was also rather opinionated but he knew what he liked and didn't, what he felt worked and didn't . And he wrote well.
Biggest criticism of Ayoob is that he has admitted to never actually dropping the hammer on anyone, and coming from a small town in New Hampshire, not the same as being Jim Cirillo.
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Most cops, from big agencies or small po'dunk towns will never smoke check a perp.

My old man worked LE for 35 years, spent the height of his career in Miami during the height of the drug wars. Never did he pull the trigger on someone. Does that mean that my old man can't shoot and doesn't understand the legal situation? Heck no.... it just means he's never smoke checked some perp.

My old man worked some of the hardest and hairiest situations in South Florida. He's been close to to having to snuff out someone, but then his suspect listened and put the gun down.

Heck, he has responded to calls where if he was there two seconds earlier, he'd had been the one who would have shot the suspect.

It is what it is. But some people think that unless you dip your pen in that ink well, you'll never be a good gun writer/instructor.... LOL. They're deprived and loony.
 
Askins' biggest fault was that he was too candid, said out loud things that many of us think and feel. Psychopath ?
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Yeah, Askins (Colonel Charles Askins) was sort of a scary dude. Sounds like he would have been a good guy in a gunfight if he was on your side. Some of the stuff he wrote in his autobiography ("Unrepentant Sinner") was sort of alarming. It wasn't just that he said things most wouldn't say, he did things as well. Here's one example.

They were having German prisoners drive captured vehicles into a wheat field.
​
"I was there and as I walked down through the long lines of vehicles I noted that some of the drivers were lifting the hoods of their vehicles. I followed this up and saw one big burly Kraut had a ballpean (sic) hammer in his hand and he was going, quite systematically, from vehicle to vehicle and smashing the distributor caps after he lifted the hoods.​
I followed him down the line, keeping one row of vehicles between myself and this scoundrel and right after he raised a hood and drew back to smash the distributor I shot him right through the kidneys with the old .45 Pachmayr. He screamed mightily. I turned and walked away."​
 
My impression of Askins Jr. is that he shot people who didn't need it, because he could and because he liked it. He certainly did not lack experience, and his writing is valuable because of it. I'm not sure I'd want him on my side in a gunfight, though, if for no other reason than that I'd never be completely sure he wouldn't shoot me just for the fun of it.
 
Miami_JBT said:
1. Vertical foregrips on ARs
2. Magpul Dynamics Chris Costa C-Clamp grip
3. Single Point Slings
4. Three Point Slings
5. Tactical Thigh Holsters
6. Redi-Mag
7. Magpul B.A.D. lever
8. Stand-off muzzle devices for pistols
9. Piston ARs
10. Rifles to replace ARs like the SIG 556, RobArm XCR, Magpul ACR, FN SCAR, etc....
11. 6.8 SPC and 65 Grendal to replace 5.56x45mm

As for thinking of .45 ACP is an effective cartridge for self-defense. I still think .44 WCF and .44 Russian is effective as a self-defense cartrirdge. ;)
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I still prefer Piston AR's dont care if its cool or not. :evil:
Old Dog said:
For those that didn't bother checking out the Ayoob thread on that other site, it started with Ayoob on cargo pants, and went seven pages of forum members calling Ayoob foul names and disparaging him.
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I have not seen the thread. However I did see the video and thought it was just joke trolling people. Much like the video many many years ago posted somewhere with a young man that kept pulling a dozen or so handguns/longguns out of his pants.
 
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BLACKHAWKNJ said:
Psychopath ? Curious how someone fighting well armed bandits in a dark alley and admits to shooting them in the back is a psychopath, a sniper who shoots someone from 600 yards away is an incredible marksman.
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Toward the end of his career, I read a review he did of some pistol, can’t remember what it was. The only thing I remember from that review was how much he hoped someone would try to steal his wife’s new car so that he could gun them down in the driveway with his new blaster.

Those are not the thoughts of a well-adjusted person.
 
Elkins45 said:
Toward the end of his career, I read a review he did of some pistol, can’t remember what it was. The only thing I remember from that review was how much he hoped someone would try to steal his wife’s new car so that he could gun them down in the driveway with his new blaster.

Those are not the thoughts of a well-adjusted person.
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That is the thought of some posters in the other forum though.
 
I grew up reading Elmer Keith and all of the writers from that era. I still have a ton of respect for them. I met Bill Jordan and he signed my book "No Second Place Winner".
 
After reading all the comments here about the "other" forums I am glad the THR is the only firearms forum that I have belonged to over the last 20 years.
And regarding the writers of the past, yes some were jerks, or worse, and much of the information has been superseded or corrected or just proven to be not gospel. A lot of the old classic hunting stories are also out of date with current game laws and such. Doesn't make the stories less good or the writers "poachers".

That is the way of "progress" and it happens pretty fast these days with the instantonlinefactcheckcomputergram stuff.
At least we can and are still discussing guns and their uses in 2024.

Who knows what we'll be allowed to discuss in the future..?
 
Ayoob notes Askins' prejudices-"27, not including..." but those were attitudes that were much more prevalent and accepted in Askins' day, still pretty common today but it has become unacceptable to air them. "Well adjusted"-? I doubt that well adjusted people go into the military, law enforcement, any field that involves risk and facing danger.
Askins was someone who really didn't care what others thought about him, which indicates a great deal of self-confidence and security.
I wouldn't say the older gun writers are disrespected, rather since they are no longer writing-all gone-they are no longer current, no longer read. Have you ever met anyone who read Gone With The Wind ?
 
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