Interesting in depth discussion of use of individual and crew served weapons in Italy during WWII.
Uphill All The Way: The U.S. Army In The WWII Italian Campaign
Uphill All The Way: The U.S. Army In The WWII Italian Campaign
Uphill All The Way: The U.S. Army In The WWII Italian Campaign
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bannockburn
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Very good article!
As an old 112.70, I found the use of the Ma Deuce as an indirect fire weapon of interest.
I cannot see any special sight on the MG other than the original direct fire sights, and the ground mount tripod appears to be the standard mount. They mention use of range cards, which would suggest an FO would be necessary, but I wonder how precision IDF can be accomplished w/the weapon pictured.
Did a little research on MG IDF and all I was able to uncover was a training film on the old M1917 Browning WC MG which was equipped w/special ground mount which was adjustable for extreme elevation and windage.
Never fired the 1917, but have fired the M1919 from both a ground mount which, due to the limited travel of elevation mechanism would not be suitable for IDF and a pedestal mount which had no elevation or windage mechanism.
I have deleted a bunch of OT posts that made this thread get locked, and re-opened it.
From here on, please keep the discussion on the weapons.
From here on, please keep the discussion on the weapons.
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lysanderxiii
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If properly set-up, the tripod with a Traverse & Elevation mechanism is fairly robust, and capable of 1 mil adjustments. A forward observer would not be required, as all the elevation and azimuths would be recorded on the range card, so at night in in fog would can still drop rounds on a target. For example, if the range card had:
Bridge - LT 157 - UP 83
You would slide the entire T&E mechanism the the right so the left edge lined up on the "150" mark on the Tripod cross bar, then dial an additional 7 clicks anti-clockwise with the traversing handwheel, then dial the elevating handwheel clockwise, viewed from the top, until you see "+50" on the elevation screw scale plate and the arrow points to the "33" on the elevation handwheel scale. Once you start shooting, the round will fall in the area of the target, plus or minus a few mils, which is the accuracy of the weapon system.
(For night fire, you would need to use hard stops on the T&E)
Hitting anything smaller than an office building with a Caliber .50, or even an M1919, as a free-gun (T&E not hooked up) is an exercise in futility.
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Thank you, sir. This is the information I was hoping for. I can't see the T&E in the picture and its been a long time since I fired the M1919 from ground mount. Did nor recall the T&E mechanism; your picture refreshed my memory.
I am still having a hard time w/procedure for setting up a MG for indirect fire. Understand azimuth for windage, but how is the elevation setting determined w/o an FO, especially w/multiple targets?
Mortar ammo comes w/card showing charge and elevation settings, measured with (way back when
) the M4 sight pictured below. An aiming stake is set up on proper azimuth, determined by an FO or plotted on map by the FDC. Once range and azimuth is determined it was still necessary to consult range card for the chosen ammo for elevation settings and increment charge for given range. Elevation is set on the sight, then tube adjusted to level the bubble on sight w/elevation screw on bipod then aimed at the stake using traversing mechanism on bipod. This gets you close, but the FO then relays corrections to insure rounds hit within bursting radius of ammo used.
Thanks again, lysanderxiii !
DustyRusty
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When my cousin & I was about ten, my uncle told us how machine guns were set up in a crossfire. Then two BARS were set up in a cross fire on each machine gun to protect them. I imagine they did that in Italy too?
lysanderxiii
Member
Well if you (the gunner) can't actually see the target, you will have to use indirect fire methods to establish the azimuth and elevation. But, that is dead simple, just fire a burst of tracer and an observer calls back corrections, repeat until the rounds land on the desired target. For multiple targets, just write down multiple target data.Thank you, sir. This is the information I was hoping for. I can't see the T&E in the picture and its been a long time since I fired the M1919 from ground mount. Did nor recall the T&E mechanism; your picture refreshed my memory.
I am still having a hard time w/procedure for setting up a MG for indirect fire. Understand azimuth for windage, but how is the elevation setting determined w/o an FO, especially w/multiple targets?
Mortar ammo comes w/card showing charge and elevation settings, measured with (way back when
Elevation is set on the sight, then tube adjusted to level the bubble on sight w/elevation screw on bipod then aimed at the stake using traversing mechanism on bipod. This gets you close, but the FO then relays corrections to insure rounds hit within bursting radius of ammo used.
Thanks again, lysanderxiii !
The defection can be compass reading or, more conveniently, read off the tripod cross bar.
That is the way the tripod is supposed to be used. The German Laffette tripod was even more sophisticated, as you could set it up to automatically traverse and search the beaten zone using the guns recoil to incrementally shift azimuth until it hit a stop, when it would reset like a typewriter. They also had a periscope sight that could be used as a panoramic sight for indirect fire.
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lysanderxiii
Member
Thanks for the reply. After your first post, I did find the T&E in the picture, my reply should have been "couldn't see", not can't at that point.
No difference than the mortar; had figured out everything except how range w/o FO would work when set up in defilade.
Thanks again for the enlightenment; who says an you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
No difference than the mortar; had figured out everything except how range w/o FO would work when set up in defilade.
That is sophisticated.
Thanks again for the enlightenment; who says an you can't teach an old dog new tricks.
Did you mean smaller than an office building?
lysanderxiii
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CapnMac
Member
@Mal H Ditto
In the photo above, given the everyone else seems to be aiming more or less level, that the heavy MG section is set up to engage something in enfilade behind a terrain feature in front of them. At least from the considerable effort they used to place that one M2, which is going to be trying to dig those rear tripod feet in the dirt with every fire.
All of which suggests some feature that allows cover for the bad guys so that they can then establish "rushes" on either side. Being able to either harass or interdict such activities would definitely be worth the effort.
It's also a striking example of the principal of how MGs are employed beyond ordinary rifle range.
HighRoadRover
Member
There is a short but excellent discussion of the use of machine guns as indirect fire weapons in WWI in the book "A Rifleman Went To War" by Herbert W. McBride. McBride was an American who enlisted in the Canadian Forces to fight in France. He was both a machine gunner and a very successful sniper. Machine guns were used to lob volleys of fire into enemy areas just behind the front lines (such as areas used for messing, eating, unloading ammo, etc.) that were shielded from direct fire by terrain but not "worthy" of artillery fires and the inevitable counter-fires.
As for the original topic, fighting in Italy, this past December James Holland published his very good book "The Savage Storm" about the campaign in Italy in 1943. Very readable. And he mentions Audie Murphy's autobiography and its portions on fighting in Italy -- the 15th Infantry, part of the 3d Inf Div, fought there before being pulled out for Operation Dragoon, the invasion of Southern France in August 1944.
As for the original topic, fighting in Italy, this past December James Holland published his very good book "The Savage Storm" about the campaign in Italy in 1943. Very readable. And he mentions Audie Murphy's autobiography and its portions on fighting in Italy -- the 15th Infantry, part of the 3d Inf Div, fought there before being pulled out for Operation Dragoon, the invasion of Southern France in August 1944.
Think I have that book; will have to dig through my library and see. THX
HighRoadRover
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McBride's book is a classic. Another classic is "Shots Fired in Anger: A Rifleman's Eye View of the Activities on the Island of Guadalcanal" by John B. George.
Both of these were written by riflemen who participated in the fighting willingly and with some relish because they were good at it and knew they were on the right side. Both books can be found on Amazon/Kindle for next to nothing in cost.
Both of these were written by riflemen who participated in the fighting willingly and with some relish because they were good at it and knew they were on the right side. Both books can be found on Amazon/Kindle for next to nothing in cost.
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