I never considered helmet mounted optics, because my chief concern is bang in the night quick response, but with the advent of more affordable rifle mounted smaller thermal and night optics, are such optics a reasonable addition to SBR, or PCCs for home defense?
Do Thermal and Night Optics Have a Role in Home Defense?
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Hugger-4641
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I don't see most weapons mounted systems as very useful in a home invasion. At least not the ones I've used. Some of the new generation of smaller units might be an exception. I think bino's or handhelds might be a better choice there.
But for perimeter defense in a shtf situation, yes, I definitely will make use of my digital and thermal NV.
But for perimeter defense in a shtf situation, yes, I definitely will make use of my digital and thermal NV.
Telekinesis
Member
Generally no, I wouldn’t expect weapon mounted NV/thermal to be helpful in the majority of home defense situations, or at least not be more helpful than a high quality daylight optic paired with a high quality weapon light.
One of my highest priorities for a HD weapon is that it always has to be ready without playing with buttons on optics. That means constant on optics like aimpoints, with the occasional exception for something that turns on with motion. NV and especially thermal drain batteries very quickly and usually can’t be left in a constant on state.
When using NV for CQB (which is essentially what you are doing in HD) it is very advantageous to have the NV on your head/helmet. This lets you maintain situational awareness and look at different things without having to point your rifle at absolutely everything to see what is going on. Even if your plan is to hole up and wait for the intruder to come to you, distances are probably going to be close enough that you won’t have a great field of view through the optic and you’ll want to keep it moving.
Depending on what optic you’re looking through, a thermal may or may not give you enough detail to be able to tell exactly who is on the other end of your gun. Granted this is situational - if you live alone, don’t expect anyone to be coming by, it’s 3 AM and they loudly kick your door down and are screaming that they’re going to kill you, facial detail isn’t the most important thing.
Plus the old argument that you have to point your rifle at everything in order to see it. We’ve moved well beyond that being an issue with weapon lights, but it is very much an issue with weapon mounted NV and Thermal. It can be somewhat mitigated by range, but inside a hallway you will have a very narrow field of view. Contrast that to the amount of spill and depth from a good weapon light which will completely light up the area, or at least the person in question so that you can see both who it is and what they are holding in their hands.
Again, I won’t say it couldn’t possibly be useful. If your “bump in the night” scenario is more akin to needing to take out some coyotes that are attacking your livestock, a NV or thermal scope could be useful. But for normal HD I would rank daylight optic with white light first, then helmet mounted NV with IR illuminator/laser, and as a distant 3rd, weapon mounted NV / thermal.
Also, not saying I would plan to use helmet mounted NV for normal home defense either - mostly due to how long it takes to to get it set up. Helmet on - NV on mount - retention attached - focus for both objective and ocular lenses (depending on unit), possibly doubled if you’re using dual tubes… I’m a big fan of night vision (it’s the only super power you can buy!) but I *also* have training in using white light at night, and that’s significantly faster to be ready in what is likely to be a “grab and go” type of scenario.
One of my highest priorities for a HD weapon is that it always has to be ready without playing with buttons on optics. That means constant on optics like aimpoints, with the occasional exception for something that turns on with motion. NV and especially thermal drain batteries very quickly and usually can’t be left in a constant on state.
When using NV for CQB (which is essentially what you are doing in HD) it is very advantageous to have the NV on your head/helmet. This lets you maintain situational awareness and look at different things without having to point your rifle at absolutely everything to see what is going on. Even if your plan is to hole up and wait for the intruder to come to you, distances are probably going to be close enough that you won’t have a great field of view through the optic and you’ll want to keep it moving.
Depending on what optic you’re looking through, a thermal may or may not give you enough detail to be able to tell exactly who is on the other end of your gun. Granted this is situational - if you live alone, don’t expect anyone to be coming by, it’s 3 AM and they loudly kick your door down and are screaming that they’re going to kill you, facial detail isn’t the most important thing.
Plus the old argument that you have to point your rifle at everything in order to see it. We’ve moved well beyond that being an issue with weapon lights, but it is very much an issue with weapon mounted NV and Thermal. It can be somewhat mitigated by range, but inside a hallway you will have a very narrow field of view. Contrast that to the amount of spill and depth from a good weapon light which will completely light up the area, or at least the person in question so that you can see both who it is and what they are holding in their hands.
Again, I won’t say it couldn’t possibly be useful. If your “bump in the night” scenario is more akin to needing to take out some coyotes that are attacking your livestock, a NV or thermal scope could be useful. But for normal HD I would rank daylight optic with white light first, then helmet mounted NV with IR illuminator/laser, and as a distant 3rd, weapon mounted NV / thermal.
Also, not saying I would plan to use helmet mounted NV for normal home defense either - mostly due to how long it takes to to get it set up. Helmet on - NV on mount - retention attached - focus for both objective and ocular lenses (depending on unit), possibly doubled if you’re using dual tubes… I’m a big fan of night vision (it’s the only super power you can buy!) but I *also* have training in using white light at night, and that’s significantly faster to be ready in what is likely to be a “grab and go” type of scenario.
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jmorris
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I keep a thermal with me in the shop and in my backpack if I leave the house. Use it all the time. I even check my propane level with it. You can see stuff you can't with NVD, like where that rabbit was sitting before you came around the corner. Also great for picking out fire ant mounds...
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A lot of these helmet mounted Thermal / NV optics light up the user with a green or white glow around their eyes / faces.
That stands out in the dark to those not wearing it.
There is a standard progression of blowing $ in certain circles.
1. AR15.
2. Red Dot.
3. Level 4 Plates.
4. Suppressor.
5. Hands free - Night Vision or Thermal.
I'm on #4. I refuse spend used car $ on NV / Thermal.
That stands out in the dark to those not wearing it.
There is a standard progression of blowing $ in certain circles.
1. AR15.
2. Red Dot.
3. Level 4 Plates.
4. Suppressor.
5. Hands free - Night Vision or Thermal.
I'm on #4. I refuse spend used car $ on NV / Thermal.
AlexanderA
Member
There are lots of things that might be useful for personal / home defense, but you have to do a cost-benefit analysis. You could easily spend yourself into the poorhouse "defending" yourself.
I think that having options is good. Rifle mounted night vision now pushes $1000, which isn’t a used car price, but it suffers from the same issue as a weapons light in that you must point the weapon at what you are viewing. If it also functions as a daylight red dot sight you can use handheld lights, or spill light from a weapons light. If you’re part of law enforcement or the military and you’re going to clear a building, it certainly doesn’t take the place at home helmet mounted NV.
I'm pretty sure that rifle mounted thermal is still pushing to 2k to 3k (used beater high mileage commuter car). A friend of mine has it on his rifle. It is nice and works day and night. If I got big into night hunting hogs I could see investing in it.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
Just presenting a contrasting perspective...not suggesting anything is wrong with your rationale...
I am not a lawyer, either, but I would not hesitate to use whatever resources I had available to me to defend my life or the lives of loved ones. I would rather have something that people may think gave me some sort of unfair advantage and have to defend myself in court than to end up dead because I didn't use something that gave me an advantage I needed and so won't be going to court. This is the whole rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6 mentality, but it has a certain validity. We are talking about using something that is illegal that exposure from a SD situation would necessarily land you jail. We are talking about perfectly legal items to own and use in such a manner. Everyone should do what they think is best for their situation. This is just my view.
With that said, for my suburban situation, I would not have much use for my NV and thermal gear for too many SD or HD situations. However, I do use it frequently when I return home in the middle of the night from night hog hunting and have to unload all my gear, which is more of a security application than the spirit of the thread regarding home defense (as in against an attacker). I will pull up to the driveway and scan my and my neighbor's driveway areas, park, take a quick 360 scan with my thermal to make sure there is nothing unusual of note, but to date, the only thing it has saved me from was a skunk that was looking for grubs next to where I park.
It may be visible to those not using NV, but it is VERY visible to others who are using it. However, there are eye cups you can use that will shut that down.
If it were useless the US military wouldn’t be using it. Anything that gives you a better view of a situation is advantageous. Learning to use it is the key.
When lasers became affordable I bought one a put it on an airgun. I put hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds through it learning how to use it. In a relatively low light situation nothing is faster. None I’ve tried really showed up well in bright sunlight. But for indoors pretty darned good.
Then red dots showed up. When the prices dropped along with size I put one on the same air pistol. Many more rounds learning to use it. Fair in relatively low light excellent in indirect sunlight not bad in direct sunlight.
My house handguns have both a laser and mini red dots. I’m going to use every technological advantage I can.
Good night vision and thermal are still very expensive. But prices are coming down and size is getting better. So at some point I’ll incorporate that technology too. All while praying I never have to shoot at someone ever again.
When lasers became affordable I bought one a put it on an airgun. I put hundreds, maybe thousands of rounds through it learning how to use it. In a relatively low light situation nothing is faster. None I’ve tried really showed up well in bright sunlight. But for indoors pretty darned good.
Then red dots showed up. When the prices dropped along with size I put one on the same air pistol. Many more rounds learning to use it. Fair in relatively low light excellent in indirect sunlight not bad in direct sunlight.
My house handguns have both a laser and mini red dots. I’m going to use every technological advantage I can.
Good night vision and thermal are still very expensive. But prices are coming down and size is getting better. So at some point I’ll incorporate that technology too. All while praying I never have to shoot at someone ever again.
US military personnel are rarely surprised in their domiciles by home invaders, and they put on their equipment when missions call for it.
Zerodefect
member
I can see fine at night.
I'm at the edge of country and burbs, plenty of light.
NV would be useless.
I'm at the edge of country and burbs, plenty of light.
NV would be useless.
entropy
Member
In my house, no need. Most of it is bad breath distance anyway, it's a small house. I have a light and a red dot on SWMBO'S HD AR, I have instructed her to not bother turning the red dot on, just the light, and put the circle (it's a smaller red dot) on the chest.
In jmorris' situation, with outbuildings and such to tend to, either would be useful, thermal more so.
As far as court and the 'unfair advantage' angle, one, basically a non issue I'd worry about afterwards, and two, not sure about thermal, but sometimes NV can be a disadvantage particularly if your home invader(s) have a flashlight.
In jmorris' situation, with outbuildings and such to tend to, either would be useful, thermal more so.
As far as court and the 'unfair advantage' angle, one, basically a non issue I'd worry about afterwards, and two, not sure about thermal, but sometimes NV can be a disadvantage particularly if your home invader(s) have a flashlight.
At the end of the day unless you have excellent night vision you'll still need white light to positively identify what you are shooting at, and night vision can lose effectiveness against someone else with white light. Either can be useful if you want to scan for a potential threat in the woodline or back field but pretty limited for actually engaging as a civilian.
For defensive purposes white light is what you want though. Either flip your room lights on or your weapon light. Tactical use of night vision is going to be when you are the aggressor, think swat hitting a house late at night when they believe everyone will be asleep. Even then the majority of teams are still using white light except some of the better trained teams.
For defensive purposes white light is what you want though. Either flip your room lights on or your weapon light. Tactical use of night vision is going to be when you are the aggressor, think swat hitting a house late at night when they believe everyone will be asleep. Even then the majority of teams are still using white light except some of the better trained teams.
The only difference between men and boys is the price of their toys My wife stitched a sampler that said that when we were dating. I don't see a need for thermal imaging for home defense. If you were in charge of security for a large multi acre compound it might be useful to watch the perimeter. There is a pretty big learning curve involved in using tools like that for fighting inside houses. (stole that from a SF trainer who liked to call CQB FISHING for fighting inside houses) If you look at the weapons the tier one units use they still mount white lights. If the guys who can have the latest and greatest night and thermal vision devices are still carrying white lights I would take that as a clue.
Think about the typical engagement ranges inside your house. Think about the ambient light that comes in the windows from street lights, security lights, cars on the road etc. I don't see what advantage an expensive thermal sight gives you in the typical home. Think of the IFF issues. Are you going to make everyone in the family wear glint tape all the time so you can tell them apart from intruders?
Bright white light can be a great force multiplier if you know how to use it. When I took Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class way back in 2003 he ran an exercise where he shined the light from a Surefire 6P (there are much brighter lights available now) and then timed how long it took for you to engage a target when your eyes dark adapted enough to see the target.
If you have the funds and want to buy thermal, go ahead, not going to tell you not to. It's not necessary to defend your home and that money would buy a lot of training and practice ammunition. I really think that for most of us the sampler my wife made answers this question.
Think about the typical engagement ranges inside your house. Think about the ambient light that comes in the windows from street lights, security lights, cars on the road etc. I don't see what advantage an expensive thermal sight gives you in the typical home. Think of the IFF issues. Are you going to make everyone in the family wear glint tape all the time so you can tell them apart from intruders?
Bright white light can be a great force multiplier if you know how to use it. When I took Louis Awerbuck's shotgun class way back in 2003 he ran an exercise where he shined the light from a Surefire 6P (there are much brighter lights available now) and then timed how long it took for you to engage a target when your eyes dark adapted enough to see the target.
If you have the funds and want to buy thermal, go ahead, not going to tell you not to. It's not necessary to defend your home and that money would buy a lot of training and practice ammunition. I really think that for most of us the sampler my wife made answers this question.
silicosys4
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Your house in the dark is not the same as a battlefield. Positive ID is a must. Let me shine 1000 lumens in your eyes in the dark and then tell me that isn't just as or more effective than thermal imaging.
Old Dog
Member
My experiences with NODs in the military and with a LE tactical team were not always positive. There are some trade-offs when using any night vision devices in a dynamic situation that I'm not willing to try if it comes to defending my home and/or property.
Thermal scope comes in handy for identifying what critters are out in the woods behind my back lot and are alerting my dogs in the middle of the night, but not strictly necessary.
Thermal scope comes in handy for identifying what critters are out in the woods behind my back lot and are alerting my dogs in the middle of the night, but not strictly necessary.
Shawn Dodson
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LED lightbulbs burn very little electricity.
A handful of well-placed lamps/nightlights turned on at night is simpler and cheaper.
A verbal challenge(s) from a position of advantage to determine friend or foe is simpler and safer than sneaking around the house playing burglar hunt.
A handful of well-placed lamps/nightlights turned on at night is simpler and cheaper.
A verbal challenge(s) from a position of advantage to determine friend or foe is simpler and safer than sneaking around the house playing burglar hunt.
AlexanderA
Member
When I was doing Civil War reenacting, one weekend we did a "tactical" exercise where the objective was to defend an abandoned house out in the country, at night. No sources of artificial light nearby. I found that I could locate the "enemy" only through their muzzle flashes. So the only thing we could do was fire back at muzzle flashes. This surprised me.
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