GeoDudeFlorida
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I still need to put together some .38 loads with CleanShot. I have 150 cases primed and ready but I keep not having the time.
Winchester 244
- Thread starter DMW1116
- Start date
tightgroup tiger
Member
I'm using Win 244 for 9mm right now. I have about 6 1/2 lbs of it. It's pretty good, It's slow in velocity compared to WSF and BE-86 which I think are faster then they should be.
15 shot string averaged 1126fps at listed maximum load of 4.5gr win 244 with a 124 gr plated TC Xtreme bullet.
I'll post some numbers when I get home from work.
15 shot string averaged 1126fps at listed maximum load of 4.5gr win 244 with a 124 gr plated TC Xtreme bullet.
I'll post some numbers when I get home from work.
Charlie98
Member
As I mentioned previously... I had to redline the W244 data to get anywhere near advertised velocity; it was the slowest of the 4 powders I worked with. 4.5grn W244 (max load from Hodgdon data...) barely gave me 1000fps with the 124grn RMR PRN, out of my 3.9" Kahr. Everything else was 50+ fps faster. I found the same, generally, in the .45ACP as well.
tightgroup tiger
Member
If you used Hodgdons data and loaded to 1.150 I can see that. I can't get their velocities with their data either.
I load all my 9mm at 1.100" and adjust my loads to be where the velocity in the recipe says it should be. Their OAL is 1.150"
About 50% of my 9mm loads I have found, don't have to be adjusted to stay in the velocities posted by powder maker, with my shorter OAL. In fact the shorter OAL actually brings the velocities up to where the company claims it should be to start with, and I good with that.
I'm using a 4.5" Walther PDP SD Pro with polygonal riflings and stepped chamber. That may have something to do with why my loads are reading higher than yours. Don't know but maybe.
Oddly enough, Titegroup is one of my best behaving powders for my shorter OAL in 9mm. Maximum load with it was around 1120 avg with loading it to 4.1gr with 124gr plated bullet, at .040" shorter than Hodgdon's data says.
That's one reason I like it so much. Seems very stable and I've gone through about 12lbs of it and it's always been the same for me.
I think some our powders have a lot more variations, then we think they do. We may just blame the variations on something we did wrong like a little different OAL, not the same exact bullet, or the weather messing with the Chono or something.
I'm using a doplar unit from Garmin.
I have found in my last 50 years not to trust anyone's powder data to be what they say it supposed to be. I'll start low and work up as we are supposed to. It may be slow or maybe really fast, hardly ever right on.
I have some powder being tested right now that is giving me over maximum load data velocity at what is claimed to be the minimum charge load by the company that made it, with their OAL.
I haven't heard back from them yet, but it's only been a week. When I told them what velocity I was getting and what I used to get the velocity with, they wanted me to send some of it in for testing.
Haven't heard back yet but it's only been a week.
My data for Win 244 is as follows for 15 shot string with my OAL.
1146.6 * cold barrel
1119.7
1145.2
1134.9
1139.3
1130.5
1123.5
1123.1
1108.7
1105.8
1130.5
1101.3
1108.7
1148.8 * May have been someone next to me. Garmin will pick up shots in indoor range that aren't mine. I try to shoot when no one else is.
1128.3
I need to test these in my Shield with it's shorter barrel (3.1") to see what the velocity drop will be.
Charlie98
Member
I did adjust my COL on my .45ACP loads... and shortening them gave me some more realistic velocities, not only with W244, but WST as well. I like WST, and particularly in the .45 with 200grn bullets, but it's still a very fast powder.
I don't generally fool with COL in the 9mm too much... Back Home, Years Ago I got into some trouble hotrodding 9mm, and one of those issues was seating depth. Thank goodness I was shooting those in a HiPower. I agree, TiteGroup in 9mm is a very good match for the 115-124grn bullets, but like WST in the .45, TiteGroup is a very fast powder with a very sharp pressure spike... so I don't color outside the lines too much with it.
Alaskamike
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- Jun 19, 2020
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- 229
If you're considering Accurate #5 and #7, definitely look at the comparable Shooters World versions of those powders, Auto Pistol and Major pistol, respectively.
thump_rrr
Member
TiteGroup is a very versatile powder. I use it in 9MM, 45ACP, and 357 Magnum.
It is very economical also but most cases can easily fit a double charge.
1KPerDay
Member
fixed it for you
GeoDudeFlorida
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It does.
LV Gun
Member
I started using W244 when I couldn’t find 700X knowing that it is a slower powder . I have used it in 9mm, 38 Super, 38 special, 40 S&W, 45 auto/auto rimmed I find it works very well in these calibers , if you are looking for a super accurate load in 38 special use it with a Precision Delta HBWC @ 2.7 grains you will be surprised as I was. It is a Win Clean powder (copper fouling eraser) it burns clean and delivers all the speed and accuracy I need I find it to be very versatile which is something I look for in powders . I have not tried it in 357mag. , 44 magnum or 454 Casull for those I use Ram Shot Enforcer. 9mm and 38 super I predominantly use Ram Shot Silhouette but have no issues with using W244 when I am out of Silhouette.
GooseGestapo
Member
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- Jan 6, 2003
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- 6,153
My younger brother who lives in LasVegas, only loads for one center fire, that being a .45Colt cylinder for his Pietta cap and ball revolver.
He bought Win 244 because it was the only suitable powder he could find at the time, and it was cheaper.
He’s quite pleased with the results. I cast him some Lee 255gr RFN which I had beagled the mold to throw .454” and I then powder coated them.
He’s been pleased with the results as it’s much cleaner than lubed bullets and either black powder or various substitutes.
Winchester intended 244 to be a more ecologically friendly powder replacement for #231 but various commercial loaders and most reloaders voted with their dollars hence 231/HP38 is still with us….
He bought Win 244 because it was the only suitable powder he could find at the time, and it was cheaper.
He’s quite pleased with the results. I cast him some Lee 255gr RFN which I had beagled the mold to throw .454” and I then powder coated them.
He’s been pleased with the results as it’s much cleaner than lubed bullets and either black powder or various substitutes.
Winchester intended 244 to be a more ecologically friendly powder replacement for #231 but various commercial loaders and most reloaders voted with their dollars hence 231/HP38 is still with us….
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Timely. I just ordered some Titegroup from my gun shop. I was going to try W244, and still will I am sure. But for now, Titegroup is just too versatile for me. It will load every single one of my handgun cartridges, including my new 45 LC Pietta 1873 and the spare cylinder (convertible) for 45 ACP. Plus, it tends to be on the "Cleaner" side for 45 LC. And I'm getting back into 9mm because I have to. My stash of 9 mil bullets and brass is ridiculous. So I might as well start shooting 9mm again since I have the components galore. I might get a semi auto rifle for poops and giggles in 9mm.
thump_rrr
Member
You are not wrong.
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
I use 244 for .38 Special and .357 magnum with 158 gr. Bear Creek Supply moly coated lead RNFP and SWC. In my experience it’s a very clean powder.
I also use it for .38 Special Wadcutter. 147 gr. BCS HBWC over 2.6 grains of W244 is very accurate from my snubnose revolvers as well as my models 10 and 19. The GP100 is another story, but I didn’t buy it to shoot wadcutters.
I tried 244 in 9mm with 115 gr. RN bullets and was not impressed with the accuracy, but with 147 grain bullets I find it to be very accurate and consistent.
I have tried 244 with .45 Colt hand loads and man, is it sooty. The powder was designed for .38 and 9mm and I guess it just won’t burn clean in that big .45 Colt case.
I am now experimenting with HP-38. I have been told that I will like it better than 244. We’ll see.
I almost forgot. My favorite load for 9mm 115 grain is 5.0 grains of Universal. This load works well in all my 9mm Glocks.
I also use it for .38 Special Wadcutter. 147 gr. BCS HBWC over 2.6 grains of W244 is very accurate from my snubnose revolvers as well as my models 10 and 19. The GP100 is another story, but I didn’t buy it to shoot wadcutters.
I tried 244 in 9mm with 115 gr. RN bullets and was not impressed with the accuracy, but with 147 grain bullets I find it to be very accurate and consistent.
I have tried 244 with .45 Colt hand loads and man, is it sooty. The powder was designed for .38 and 9mm and I guess it just won’t burn clean in that big .45 Colt case.
I am now experimenting with HP-38. I have been told that I will like it better than 244. We’ll see.
I almost forgot. My favorite load for 9mm 115 grain is 5.0 grains of Universal. This load works well in all my 9mm Glocks.
Charlie98
Member
To be honest, I was going to quote and do the very same thing. You need to have your ducks in a row as far as your reloading methodology is concerned when using something like TiteGroup.
You can call it 'ecologically friendly,' or you can call it 'cheaper to produce.' It is my understanding that W231/HP38 is a powder that creates a lot of byproduct during manufacture that has to be disposed of.
Amen, brother. I hate reloading 9mm... but it is what it is.
I ran some 'new powder' tests with both the 9mm, and the .45ACP... with an eye to replace Unique, very similar to Universal. I used W244, BE-86... the darling of the handloaders... TiteGroup, and SportPistol, along with the tried and true WST... and none of them beat Unique. The caveat to that is... of course... in my use case (short barreled pistols, lighter bullets.) Nothing beat Unique. Some of them could match Unique... with some micromanaging of the load, but nothing beat Unique for overall use and ease of loading. Just my .02 worth. I suspect your use of Universal is similar.
I have reloaded W231 for decades, but in 9mm, 40 S&W, 380 and 38 Spl. Just recently I got into 45 LC reloading and used W231.
I have already concluded that W231 is too dirty for my taste in 45 LC. For a cleaner burn in 45 LC, I prefer Titegroup. I have not loaded Titegroup in my other pistol carts yet, but I am sure it will suit my needs.
My understanding is that HP-38 is simply a W231 clone. Same powder, different packaging. From my experience, that is true. I do not see any difference in these powders. Yet I do read that other Reloader's swear there is a difference. Interesting.
No experience yet with W244, but that is on the agenda.
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Jim Watson
Member
What is W277?
OK, he has fixed it, but now we know why not to use unsupported reload data off the internet.
OK, he has fixed it, but now we know why not to use unsupported reload data off the internet.
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Pat Riot
Contributing Member
What’s “277”? Did you mean 244?
I believe HP-38 is the same as W231. Thanks.
tightgroup tiger
Member
You mean W231, right?
Pat Riot
Contributing Member
Yep!
I started using Universal in 2016 when we had yet another run on all things “ammo” related. I could not find Unique anywhere, but Universal was plentiful. It’s very similar to Unique, but not the same. One thing that I liked about Universal is that it is cleaner burning than Unique. Even though the new and improved Unique came out around 2000, if I remember correctly, I found Universal to be cleaner.
I liked Unique for a long time. It’s all I used for pistol cartridges, but the Obama years ammo and components shortages pretty much steered me away from it.
Before all that silliness and the one we’re coming out of now I have learned to be more flexible and try different powders for reloading.
Of course. Man, that will be the last time I post without my first cup of coffee, gents. Sorry. W231 indeed. Yikes. Good thing I am not doing my taxes today.
Fixed my previous post. Thanks.
GeoDudeFlorida
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Most of the powders I’ve purchased since about 1980 I bought as part of my efforts to conserve my supplies of Bullseye, Unique and 2400. Those are my goto powders for all things handgun and many things rifle. It seems I’m not alone since those are also the first powders to vanish in any time of supply shortages. The Accurate powders - #’s 2, 5, 7, 9, and 4100 - are good substitutes. But it takes all five to “replace” my core three.
Some folks have different tastes. My FiL preferred W231, W296, and 700X for his core powders but he never reloaded for rifle or small caliber pistols/revolvers. The .32Long really needs Bullseye.
Anyway, it’s good to try new things and expand your repertoire but in my opinion there’s no sense being dependent on a sole source when the reality is almost any smokeless powder can be made to work in almost any cartridge. Within the limits of testing, of course.
tightgroup tiger
Member
I'm going to the range later today with 200) W244 loads in 4.3gr this time. Loaded at 1.115" with 124 gr xtreme plated TC bullets .
I'll get some velocities and post them.
I'll get some velocities and post them.
All very good reading and testing.
Anyone ever get as tired ot their chronograph as the are their bore scope. After a while you can figure close . I like reading about powders I use that others say isn't good.
I'm sure I'm missing the point but a little less FPS out of a hand held device isn't a deal killer. Excluding competitors .
So many good powders. It's sometimes better to pick one commonly avaliable. I hate throwing money at shipping and hazmat.
Anyone ever get as tired ot their chronograph as the are their bore scope. After a while you can figure close . I like reading about powders I use that others say isn't good.
I'm sure I'm missing the point but a little less FPS out of a hand held device isn't a deal killer. Excluding competitors .
So many good powders. It's sometimes better to pick one commonly avaliable. I hate throwing money at shipping and hazmat.
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