Over Penetration!!

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Lotsa woulda/coulda/shoulda, but it's still a guy with ONLY a .30-'06. We're stuck with doing the minimum creation of problems...

If not the 110-grain varmint load, the 55-grain saboted "Accelerator" load is an option. I haven't paid attention to see if these are still made and are available outside of a gunshow.

Dunno about the Glazer, but I don't even want to be in front of a Blank, from an '06. :) That's a face full of gas, which can be hard on the eyebones...

Art
 
Remington "Accelerator" .30-06 sapboted .224" at about 4,000fps. This would be the ONLY acceptable choice in my opinion.

It will still likely punch a cinder block wall, after going through your 3 house walls, but it isn't terribly likely to be more than fast moving dust by the time it makes it to your neighbor's house, if you're lucky.

A standard 165gr .30-06, even a ballistic tip/soft point, will blow right through a human, mushrooming a bit, killing him, and say sort of "what the f--- was that?" then continue downrange with about 2,000lb/ft of muzzle energy still present.

You may find it after it goes through about 3 homes.
 
It [Remington Accelerator] will still likely punch a cinder block wall, after going through your 3 house walls, but it isn't terribly likely to be more than fast moving dust by the time it makes it to your neighbor's house, if you're lucky.
Actually, cinder blocks are a lot more bullet-resistant than they're given credit for, because many tests involve isolated blocks sitting on a stand. When under compression in a masonry wall, cinder blocks are much more resistant to fracture failure. From John Farnam:

03Aug04
A friend recently did penetration tests of pistol, shotgun, and rifle rounds at an old school that was being demolished. Construction dated from the 1960s. Exterior walls were twelve-inch cinderblock. Interior walls were eight-inch cinderblock. We've all seen demonstrations where the demonstrator places a single cinderblock on a stump and than shoots through it with 308 rifle rounds and 12ga slugs. The result is a good deal different when the cinderblock being shot is cemented into a wall. We discovered that 12ga slugs, both standard (Foster) and reduced-recoil, failed to penetrate even the eight-inch wall. Standard 223 failed to penetrate too, as would be expected, but 308 and 7.62X39 didn't penetrate either! Cinderblock walls, so common in institutional construction, provide a more robust barrier than any of us thought. We have nothing in our standard inventory that will reliably shoot through one. /John

03Aug04

Enlightenment on the subject of penetration, from a mechanical engineer:

"Your penetration test results are not surprising. 'Penetra tion' of a single, unsupported cinderblock via a rifle round is actually a fracture fa ilure, followed by 'penetration.' Conversely, built and cemented in to a wall, each block reinforces the next, and blocks under compression are much stronger that a single block sitting by itself. Under such conditions, blocks are exceptionally resistant to fracture and resultant penetration, as you disco vered.

Your quip is an excellent illustration of the axiom: 'Test procedure defines the result.' If one doesn't anticipate attempting penetration of a single block, sitting by itself on a stump, then such a test or 'demonstrat ion' would appear to be irrelevant. The closer to reality the test, the more legitimate the results."

Comment: My friend is right. We must be careful not to be deceived by test s and demonstrations that are designed merely to impress, rather than inform.

/John

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/2004/03Aug04.html
 
Bartholomew Roberts opined;
The 130gr Glaser load will minimize your risks if you miss a target; but since it is made up of compressed #8 birdshot, don't expect much penetration if you hit.
I assure you sir that at typical living room range this round WILL achieve sufficient penetration.

And the threads DF357 was searching for are from Old_Painless and his infamous Box O' Truth over on AR15.com
Eye-opening real world results. Just the way I like them.

The Box O' Truth

The Box O' Truth Speaks Again

The Shotgun meets The Box O' Truth

Miscellaneous Rounds Meet The Box O' Truth

The Locks O' Truth
 
130gr Blue, Glaser Safety Slug 3100fps pre-fragmented bullet
Designed to not penetrate walls./QUOTE]

IIRC the safety slug was actually designed not to send fragments back towards the shooter when shooting steel plates. Hence the "safety slug" name. I THINK that the Box O' Truth links show a test using a 9mm glaser that punched through multiple layers of sheetrock unhindered. I would imagine that the 30-06 would do the same only moreso. (i can't check the links to the ar15.com threads because they are filtered from this computer so correct me if I am wrong about that).

Gelatin tests seem to indicate that these bullets do break apart in flesh though so, if you didnt miss it might be just the ticket. This is certainly a better option than downloading your rifle. .30 caliber weapons seem to have awesome penetration no matter what (hence their popularity). Even the 7.62x25 pistol cartridge is famed for shooting though all manner of things.
 
The Glaser Safety Slug was introduced in the 1970s. It was designed for law enforcement/self defense in urban environments. The goal was to make it safe for innocent bystanders in the area.

It accomplished this by breaking up inside a soft target and by fragmenting against a hard target.



There are modern frangible rounds from several other companies that were developed to prevent backsplash from steel targets.
 
In one of the "Box o' Truth" tests, he used an M1A2, 7.62x51 NATO (.30-06 is 7.62x63, so .30-06 is more powerful)

"7.62 X 51 mm, M1A2. This round went through 12 boards of sheetrock, busted the water jug, busted a brick, but was stopped by the brick."

That's military ball ammo, not reduced-power stuff, but still, through 12 sheets of drywall, a 1 gallon water jug, a pine board, and broke a brick behind the pine board. :what:

Sounds like a quote from Johnny Dangerously. "It shoots through schools." :D
 
As much good ammo advice as you've gotten, I'd seriously look toward getting a shotgun or pistol as your main HD weapon. Either can be had for under $200 with a little shopping.

My nightstand guns are a S&W K-38 loaded w/ +P hollowpoints & a Ruger Blackhawk .357Mag w/ 158gr SJHP's (in case I have to punch a hole THROUGH something to punch a hole IN something)...

My MAIN HD gun is a 12ga. Stoeger Coach Gun (double barrel) loaded w/ #4 non-mag turkey loads. The cuff on the buttstock holds two extra #4's , two 00 Buck, and a slug--just in case two aren't enough. Pumps are good choices, too--I just like guns I can use w/ one hand, if needed.

I save the centerfire rifles (in my case, a .303 SMLE) for long-range targets outside the home. Not a lot of those to worry about, though...
 
I assure you sir that at typical living room range this round WILL achieve sufficient penetration.

At living room ranges, #8 birdshot from a 12ga shotgun shell doesn't achieve anywhere near the recommended 12" of gel penetration, so I'd be surprised if an even smaller mass of shot did better.

To give you a comparison, a 12ga shotgun loaded with #6 shot has a maximum depth potential in gel of 5", though most of the pellets will stop by 4". Because #8 weighs almost half as much as #6, you can expect to see even less penetration from that.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

Also, it seems I was mistaken and Glaser Blue uses compressed #12 shot (less than 1/10th the mass of #6 shot). Glaser Silver uses compressed #6 shot.

http://mysite.elixirlabs.com/index.php?uid=12665&page=1983

To give you an idea of why Glasers can be a bad idea, imagine a target with their arms in front of them holding a handgun isoceles style, or a side shot of a target with arms and shoulders in the way. This is what happens using light shot loads:

X-RayGlaserAp.jpg

More pictures and story here: http://www.firearmsid.com/Feature Articles/102000/JohannesburgTraumaUnit.htm

Notice how most of the shot is inside the arm and the very small amount that exited the arm is just under the skin of the torso? That wound may be pretty unpleasant to look at; but it will not cause a physiological stop.

Now I wouldn't volunteer to stand in front of a Glaser and there is no question that it won't exit a target and present an overpenetration risk; but I think there are better rounds that also will not exit while providing better penetration on the target.
 
I agree about the magical fragmenting ammo, it just is not going to be stopped by your average walls. I can't think of a round that will have the energy, penetration, and wound cavity necessary to incapacitate someone, yet, it will break apart when it hits drywall. Drywall it pretty weak, it's not solid, basically a compressed powder that loves to break apart. The ammo that I've seen used in some live fire MOUT training now is designed not to ricochet when it hits stone or steel, not drywall.
 
but I think there are better rounds that also will not exit while providing better penetration on the target.
In 30.06?

Remington Accelerators would work, but I don't think they're made anymore [they aren't listed on Remington's website]. The lighter varmint loads probably won't exit, but I wouldn't count on that without testing.
 
Barth, you have to consider a few things. It's more than just the size of the shot used. It's the fact that it's encased in a copper jacket to hold it together for penetration and the fact that it's moving at Three Thousand Feet Per Second when it hits and fragments.

Your shotgun full of birdshot ain't doing that. And we're not talking Glaser out of a handgun here, we're talking about an aught-six. Unless you live in the Clampett's masion all of your in the same room shots will be less than 20 feet.

It's obvious you have NO first hand experience with Glaser rifle ammo. You're just speculating.


And the original question was what the best ammo for the gun he already has.
And I not so humbly gave the best answer based on his criteria.
 
carpettbaggerr, Remington still lists the Accelerator for .30-06.
It's catalogue #R30069

attachment.php




They still produce it for the .30-30 too.



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Barth, you have to consider a few things. It's more than just the size of the shot used. It's the fact that it's encased in a copper jacket to hold it together for penetration and the fact that it's moving at Three Thousand Feet Per Second when it hits and fragments.

Look, the whole point of a fragmenting round is NOT to penetrate. You can't very well make a logical argument that this round is optimum because it won't overpenetrate drywall but will penetrate adequately in a human body. It makes no sense.

3,000fps isn't going to help once the load is no longer compressed and consists only of individual #12 shot. And exactly where does the Glaser break up and release its shot load? At much lower handgun velocities, the x-ray above shows that it appears to do so immediately upon contact. I don't see much in the way of extra penetration provided by a compressed mass in a copper jacket. In fact, if you'll follow the link to see a picture of the victim you will note two things:

A) The victim is moving under his own power well enough to pose for a picture
B) The initial entry wound shows the shot has already opened up before it has even begun penetrating the skin.

Remember the basic concept of physics that the more mass an object has, the harder it is to accelerate or decelerate that object? This same phenomenon explains why heavier, slower bullets penetrate more deeply than faster, lighter bullets in many scenarios.

Your shotgun full of birdshot ain't doing that. And we're not talking Glaser out of a handgun here, we're talking about an aught-six. Unless you live in the Clampett's masion all of your in the same room shots will be less than 20 feet.

The shotgun full of #6 birdshot is ~1oz of shot (438.75 grains) traveling at 1,300fps from the muzzle (and still mostly compressed by the shot wad at 20'). The .30-06 Glaser is 130gr of #12 shot (1/3 the weight of smaller mass pellets) traveling at 3 times the speed.

Look at the example I showed regarding an arm intervening. What is going to happen in that scenario regardless of whether you use a handgun or rifle Glaser? The shot will break up out of its compressed mass into individual pellets of #12 shot - it will then have to exit the opposite side of the arm (which is very elastic and can use up the same amount of energy as penetrating 4" of gelatin according to researchers in terminal ballistics). It must then penetrate the skin of the torso and continue on deep enough to cause serious blood loss or hit the central nervous system. You are telling me that this will happen with the .30-06 Glaser?

A 130gr Glaser round does not carry that much more shot than a handgun round (80gr for 9mm) and the extra velocity is meaningless because once the slug fragments it will bleed off because a small mass decelerates very quickly.

It's obvious you have NO first hand experience with Glaser rifle ammo. You're just speculating.

I do have firsthand experience with the Glaser .223 rifle ammo. I have never used the .30-06 ammo; but I'd be surprised to find that it both substantially improves the performance of the .223 in penetration and alters the laws of physics regarding the tendency of objects with little mass to quickly accelerate and decelerate. In fact, if you'd like to read my experiences with Glasers (and my former defense of them), you can find them archived at TFL.

If you have some first hand experience with .30-06 Glaser that is relevant, I'd be interested in seeing it presented.

And the original question was what the best ammo for the gun he already has. And I not so humbly gave the best answer based on his criteria.

His criteria was that he wanted something that would not exit the target and present an overpenetration risk. The round you gave him certainly meets that criteria; but I think that your recommendation sacrifices too much performance on the target to meet the goal of reduced penetration.
 
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