Do you CCW with a round chambered?

I'm in the "have it chambered" camp, but find the comments about Flopsy dying because of his choice quite melodramatic and amusing.

The odds of him being in a life or death situation are slim provided he's alert and does not go to really bad places. The odds of him having to use (fire) even one shot if he's in a life or death situation are slim. There is also a chance if he does get into a life threatening situation it will be when he doesn't have the gun or cannot access it in time. The previous considerations apply to everyone regardless of carry method. Finally, if he gets into a life threatening situation, has the gun and has to fire...the odds are probably with him being able to chamber a round.

But carrying ain't about the odds...it's about what would you do and how would you prepare for that life or death struggle IF it happened to you in spite of them? Most folks give it no thought and make no preparations (which is a choice) and live productive, victim-free existences anyway. Those of us who do choose to prepare, take responsibility for our own safety instead of leaving it to chance. Flopsy has made his choice and will be responsible for the outcome. I'd bet on him against the average thug even with the slight handicap.

I don't know if the Israelis still carry this way...but there is at least one former Israeli commando in the US teaching this way as if it is still their preferred method.

I am suprised at how few of of use carry a revolver for SD. Looks to be only about 10% or so.

That's not what I said. You're talking all about unforeseen surprises. So am I.

What I'm trying to get across to you is that this door swings both ways. I keep hearing so many people say that they don't trust their ability to rack a slide under stress. Your exact same statement, quoted above, can be made about them.


I didn't say it's what you said, Flopsy. I said that is what I was getting from those in this discussion who don't carry with a round chambered. No one said it, but if you do trust your skills under stress, then why an empty chamber? What else besides the person carrying the weapon will make it discharge during the draw?

We're in agreement on the second part. That's why I insist on carrying the weapon I depend on to defend myself be ready for action when I decide I need it. Under stress, I may not have the time to rack the slide. My hand may be sweaty from the heat or stress. I may need my weak hand to defend against a knife or other weapon. I may not have time to rack the slide and engage more than one attacker. I acknowledge that my skills may break down some under stress, and therefore I do what I can to eliminate extra time and motion necessary under stress. I base this on a lot of practical training, and real life experiences. I know I will keep my finger out of the trigger guard and off the trigger until I am ready to discharge the weapon.

I find this to be a very interesting topic. I do not carry as I do not have my ccw yet. But when I do I expect to carry with out a round in the chamber. I want the added security of knowing I will not have a round go off in carry or draw condition. I have a CZ PCR. So 1/2 cock and loaded may also be a option. In the end how long does it really take to rack the slide....1/2 of 1/2 of a second? With proper tranning it should not make that much of a difference in draw time.

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If that is your concern, then it would seem to me that a better choice would be to get a gun with a long double-action trigger pull AND a manual safety. Such as a 3rd-gen Smith and Wesson. Keep the hammer down and the safety on, and you satisfy that concern, BUT you can still get the gun going with one hand.

Do you feel that a revolver is an absolutely unacceptable carry gun? Because you can't carry chamber-empty in a revolver, unless you set it up so the first trigger pull drops the hammer on an empty chamber, which seems to me to be a REALLY bad idea.

My concern with carrying a pistol chamber empty, magazine loaded wouldn't be draw time, it'd be the requirement that your off hand MUST be free to rack the slide, or else you're sunk. So if you're fending/guarding with the off hand, or trying to pull your child to safety while drawing, you're SOL.

Flopsy said:

I'm not going to be firing at anybody who is unaware of me, I will only fire at an attacker.

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I'm only going to be firing at an attacker, but the attacker might well be attacking someone other than me.

Obviously there could be the very dramatic and unlikely scenario of being at the site of an active shooter actively shooting random people, as was the case at the Tacoma Mall almost a year ago.

However, a more likely scenario would be me as a customer inside the local Shop-N-Rob, when an armed robber walks in and demands money of the cashier. I will be one with the Cheetoes, seeking cover but settling for concealment, behaving as a good witness, but it might become necessary for me to shoot the attacker who does not see me if I reasonably believe said attacker is about to start killing people.

Cops give orders and point guns at people a lot--without the need to shoot them. It's the nature of their work.

The armed private citizen infrequently needs to shoot someone, but I am of the belief that the armed citizen is far less likely to cover someone at gunpoint, and much more likely to need to shoot someone, than is the police officer. For that reason, I believe the armed citizen is better served by loaded chamber carry.

round one

I carry with a chambered round; six of them.

It's not that I forsee myself being involved in a high noon quick draw, but that, it is realistic that, I could come upon something already in progress and be behind in the "OODA" loop of defense.

Find the OODA loop at the THR by searching.

Under those conditions, having to chamber a round may well put you in the SOL category of self defense.

I too am anxious about an unintended discharge; I carry a single action revolver, in a holster that binds the hammer down with a strap. That is as safe as can be and still have a round in the chamber. Yes, my pistol has the hammer safety bar feature.

This pistol is large, so during the warm months, my smaller pistol has the safety engaged, the hammer down, and would be fired double action -safety mechanism disengaged. Still, there is a round in the chamber.

If your're concerned about giving yourself a gender change by firearm, then switch to a belt holster and wear some type of covering jacket.

Never go without a reload, a back up, or a charged weapon.

Chambered and the magazine topped off.

If you carry with an empty chamber, why not just carry a rock????

Most times I carry, it's a revolver.

When an auto is used, it is chambered. 1911 is cocked and locked, Glock/XD is racked.

If it stays in the holster, it aint going off. If it comes out of the holster, it needs to go off.

The melodramatic statements on page 4 are funny and all, but hardly accurate. The extra 1/2 second to rack the slide probably won't matter in a well maintained handgun.

I do see value in avoiding the sound of a racking slide. What if you hear a strange noise outside your tent while camping? What if there is a shooting at your local mall and you hide in a dressing room, then pull out your weapon to make your escape out? I could come up with a few more. I'll stick with one in the pipe for myself just in case one of those situations come up, or one I haven't thought of yet.

same boat

I'm in the same boat as Techumseh, I also live in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Illinois. When I lived in Va and had a CCW I always carried with one in the chamber.

Yep, and its a Glock too. (scary music)

How many quick-draw situations do you guys even think happen?

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DRMMR02,

I am not worried about quick draw situations. I live in the city so I am more worried about situation where someone is instantly on top of you before you know it. A situation where you might have to use one hand to try and hold off the attacker leaving only one hand to both draw and fire my weapon. That is why I love my snubbie revolver. Can be operated both SA or DA with one hand easily.

If you carry with an empty chamber, why not just carry a rock????

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Because racking the slide on a rock won't make it hurl JHP's at 1100 feet per second.

I'm a LEO and I would NEVER want to have to draw and chamber my weapon in order to use it. I wear a security type duty holster when I'm working. The split second it takes for me to be able to draw my weapon due to this holster is a necessary evil associated with the job. Bu tI can do it with one hand, not two.

Funny, how lots of people on here want to practice and train and be ready for when the SHTF, but will blindly believe that they will have the time to draw and chamber a round when the S does HTF. And when faced with the "expect the worst", they blow it off by saying, well.......it won't really happen. Famous last words I'm sure.

I do not know of one instructor, LEO or non-LEO that advocates carrying a handgun unchambered. Its a free world, do what you want but you are waaaay behind the curve carrying an unchambered handgun.

Remeber that when someone comes charging at you and your wife when instead of pushing her to a place of safety your hand is trying to rack the slide of your handgun.

And just because you can do it in the complete safety of your home does not mean you can do it under stress. Which is why the best instructors, LEO and non-LEO strive to induce as much stress as possible in training to show what a SHTF situation is really like.

The split second it takes for me to be able to draw my weapon due to this holster is a necessary evil associated with the job.

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Yeah Steve...too bad you can't just walk around all day in your Weaver stance... Thanks for confirming the perspective you're coming from.

Pistols are always chambered, semi or revolver. Rifle might not be, but the pistol will be.

What perspective, that anyone carrying an unchambered handgun is a disaster waiting to happen?

Thank you for confirming my original suspicions; some people shouldn't carry a gun because they don't know what they are doing.

By the way, I don't use a weaver stance.

No I carry a empty pistol and a small reloading kit. Figure I have plenty of time to whip up a few of my super SD loads.
Why would anyone carry a empty gun for SD.

What perspective, that anyone carrying an unchambered handgun is a disaster waiting to happen?

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Yes exactly. That's some weird melodrama you got going on there. You called keeping your gun holstered an "evil." Your words. No Steve, keeping your gun in your holster is not evil.

THAT'S why we disagree. I don't think that keeping your gun in a holster is evil, nor do most other sane adults.

The perspective I'm referring to is that of course we don't agree on chambered/unchambered, because we don't even agree on whether keeping it holstered is "evil."

The split second it takes for me to be able to draw my weapon due to this holster is a necessary evil associated with the job.

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I live in PA. Now every time I see a cop I'm going to get anxious wondering if it's Officer Steve thinking it's evil to have to keep his gun holstered.

What???

What does carrying an unchambered handgun have to do with keeping it in a holster?

Check you meds, please.

Come on Steve. You're not that dim. You're NOT. I refuse to believe it.

Let's break it down.

1. I think that keeping my gun holstered is a good, rather than "evil" thing to do in normal sane society.

2. By your own words, you think the necessity of keeping your gun holstered is an "evil."

3. Of course you disagree with carrying unchambered, because you don't even agree with keeping it holstered.

4. Therefore, you and I disagree.

Get it yet?

If I didn't carry in condition one I might as well have a bar of soap in my holster..........Essex

DRMMR02 said:

How many quick-draw situations do you guys even think happen?

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It's close to impossible to know. There are but a few hundred killings of felons by citizens every year (see the FBI UCR), but those have been questioned as the FBI apparently only reports justifiable killings whereas some states report at least some killings under the heading of excusable killings. I believe Clayton Cramer has written on this. Someone in here should know and have details.

There are an unknown, and presumably larger, number of citizens shooting but not killing felons.

Then there's the situation in which a citizen shoots at but does not hit the felon. Hard to guess whether that would be higher or lower than the two unknown figures above.

Aside from an occasion anecdotal example of details, in none of these unknown numbers do we know the time in which the shooting occurred.

DRMMR02 said:

I can't think of a single response in all 4 or 5 pages where a person needed to draw and fire a round in half a second.

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Cops have. Granted, police work places them in harms way whereas the armed citizen must, or ought to try if possible, to withdrawal, retreat, etc. Cops are also carrying openly whereas armed citizens generally carry concealed and thus have the advantage of surprise.

DRMMR02 said:

I know everyone has this "I'm gonna need to draw and drop a line of vicious attackers in seconds" mindset, but honestly, do you really think that is going to happen?

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If I KNEW it was gonna happen, I'd stay home, call 9-1-1, and grab a loaded rifle.

Since I don't even know whether I'm gonna need a gun, let alone in what fraction of a second I'll need it, I'd just assume not take chances.

I still see no advantage to carrying on an empty chamber. Carrying with a loaded chamber I have a theoretical advantage, should TSHF, but I've not yet heard any advantage, real or imagined, to empty chamber carry.

DRMMR02 said:

If you practice, you can draw and rack the slide in less than a second.

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Short-stroking a shotgun, and jamming it up, is fairly easy to do. Under duress, if you friggin' need a gun and right now, racking the slide is just one more thing that one can screw up.

DRMMR02 said:

And unchambered weapon is completely safe from misfire.

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Correction. Cooper's Rule #1 says All Guns Are Always Loaded. Almost sounds like you're attempting to justify one unsafe practice by a questionable carry practice.

DRMMR02 said:

And with some practice, one can drop whatever they have in their other hand, draw, rack, and be ready fire before what they were carrying hits the ground.

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Some of us have small kids which means we sometimes have a small child in one arm, or a bag or stroller or whatever. Dropping what's in hand #2 isn't always an option. Might HAVE to be a one handed operation.

DRMMR02 said:

Those of you who have had to draw for real, did you need to draw and fire in one quick movement, or did you have half a second to chamber a round? Simple question.

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Simple questions rarely have simple answers. Short answer is, I don't know.

The one time I came closest to drawing on someone, they were standing at one point about 12-15 feet from me. If they'd had a knife, and made a run at me, even drawing and firing and hitting the A-Zone and moving off the line of attack, I might well have still gotten stabbed. Throw in a slide rack and that's another 1/2 second or so.

Of the two times in which I "shot someone" in training (with Code Eagle rounds), in the second one it would not have mattered. A slide rack would have easily been possible.

But in the first encounter, it was over in about 4-5 seconds from the first to the last of the 10 or 12 shots fired (there were 3 of us, 1 BG and 2 students). Maybe I coulda racked the slide in time, but the other student definitely could not have. He had just enough time to draw, come up on target, and shoot.

DRMMR02 said:

And for myself, I can rack the slide a lot faster than I can take the safety off. So I leave the safety off and keep it unchambered

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You must be danged slow with a safety or don't practice it. I've seen a lot of guys draw and fire with a lot of safety equipped firearms. 1911s, Berettas, Rugers, S&Ws, etc. I've yet to see ANYONE--regardless of their experience level so long as they even had some modest instruction in drawing, firing and reholstering a pistol--who was slowed down in a draw and fire exercise by having to disengage the safety. Safety is off by the time the gun is angled down at about 45 degrees while still rising up towards the target.

I've also watched a number of folks performing Tap/Rack and other malfunction clearance drills. I'm reasonable fast on the draw myself, and reasonably OK doing malfunction clearances. At FAS-4, in a Draw and Fire speed drill, I beat out every other student, then the Senior Instructor, and then Marty Hayes. With that said, every person I've ever seen do a Tap/Rack drill or slide rack, even very experienced instructors, while fast is relatively very slow when compared to disengaging a safety.

IMHO, a slide rack adds upwards of about a half second, it requires two hands, it requires that both hands work together in a coordinated manner, and if you miss with the slide racking hand you cannot fire.

OTOH, also IMHO, disengaging a safety adds no time to one's draw and it's a small muscle thumb or finger movement done with the gun hand. If the non-shooting hand "misses" to get a two hand grip, one can still continue up on target and shoot one handed. One can also shoot from a retention position one handed and use the non-shooting hand to strike or push and create distance if the attack happens in close, and it likely will happen in close. 7 yards is probably the outer limit of where most any self defense shooting will happen. Inside 7 feet is much more likely. You probably will need every advantage.

Finally, no school of instruction would allow you to practice carrying safety off when using a safety equipped firearm. If the holster has retention straps, you must use them all. Even if it's an S3, and I've seen guys using an S3 draw, fire and hit the A-Zone at 7 yards in about 1.1 to 1.2 seconds with all the holster safeties engaged. If the gun has a safety, you must use it. There was either an LAPD cop or LASO deputy a few years back who drew his Beretta 92F and was unable to fire. He carried with the safety off, and practiced draw and fire. Well, Mr. Murphy and his danged laws had his way that day. The safety, at some point in time, got bumped on and the gun would not go boom. Fortunately, the cop's partner was able to fire. After that, almost any department that issued safety equipped firearms required it's officer to use the safety, practice draw-safety off-fire, and safety on reholstering.

A mechanical safety is a device that CAN fail, and failure is defined to include getting bumped on at the most inopportune time especially if one does not practice draw, safety off, fire.

Maybe someone can clear something up for me. The pro-one-in-the-pipe crowd seems to acknowledge that skills and training can break down under stress.

Short-stroking a shotgun, and jamming it up, is fairly easy to do. Under duress, if you friggin' need a gun and right now, racking the slide is just one more thing that one can screw up.

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And before that, promoting chambered carry:

I acknowledge that my skills may break down some under stress, and therefore I do what I can to eliminate extra time and motion necessary under stress.

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BUT, everyone in the pro-chambered camp is still 100% confident that they can keep their training intact to keep clear of the trigger and prevent a ND, even though they fully acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress. In fact, that's the argument I hear most why people SHOULD carry chambered.

Tell me, why if you acknowledge that skills and training break down under stress, are you insistent that this part of the skills are immune from stress and won't break down, but the ability to rack a slide or switch off a safety are subject to break down under stress?