What Gun for School Defense?

This is actually a good post despite the very silly and unlikely constraints because it's an interesting mental excercise. The crazy thing is I was pondering it earlier and realized that this is exactly how our school manages other things such as thermostat controls and our defibrillator, so maybe it's not too out there.

I orginally suggested shotguns not because they're ideal or even good for the situation, but rather because they're effective and cheap. Schools aren't going to spring for anything that costs very much. They'd stick Hi Point carbines in those boxes if they thought they could get away with it. They'd buy a $500 lockbox and put a $150 gun in it all right...

The M1 Carbine is the right kind of thinking, but come on, schools are not going to go buy milsurps for this any more than police agencies are.

Frangible ammunition is prudent here in any event, but honestly defeating overpenetration outright is not going to happen, and will not matter so much because the terrorist's body is going to take a great deal of the kinetic energy out of whatever we shoot into it anyway.

So simple even a teacher who probably doesn't like guns anyway can understand how to operate it, plus little chance of malfunction caused by the operator or the firearm.

Spraying the place with 00 buck or automatic pistol or rifle fire would only endanger innocent bystanders.

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Oh yes with our college degrees and stiff minimum GPA requirements we need the simplest devices possible.

My Texas CHL says I'm licensed to carry one of those super advanced and complicated bottom feeder things, but that's too complicated for me, I don't know how I ever qualified with it. I'm one of those dumbass "left leaning teachers with next to no training".

You know what screw the whole thing and just put a bucket of rocks in the faculty lounge.

The sheer amount of disrespect and hatred for the American educator on this forum is just astonishing.

What about ED?






Seriously, I think the best option is CCW. Americans aren't used to seeing hevily armed guards around children and we don't want schools looking like prisons. With CCW the kids can be protected while appearing to maintain the Status Quo.

AR15s, or the more PC-looking mini 14s.

M1 Carbine--easy to use, effective enough, not alot of recoil for the teachers who will be sensitive to it, more effective than a pistol (since you cannot carry the pistol on your person) at longer ranges, BUT--since it is one of those otherwise worthless rounds (crappy penetration, etc etc), it would be IDEAL for a school.

My 2 cents

Cruiser-safe standard plane-Jane AR-15 with an EOTech left in a cruiser-safe condition inside a concealed locker within the office.

.38 revolvers with frangible loads, or barring that I second the Beretta Cx4 storm, in 9mm also with frangible loads. I cannot for the life of me imagine why anyone would suggest a shotgun for a school situation, would you also use one in a crowded shopping mall or a fair or nightclub? Shotguns have their place but a crowded chaotic indoor environment is not that place IMHO. Overpenetration is a very real concern here, and as long as the rounds are on target, you are putting hurt on the BG and stopping the fight. I have never heard of a school shooting where the perpetrators used body armor so I'm not sure why that is coming up here . Unless we are talking about a beslan type situation, with heavily armed and armored terrorists no amount of guns in the school would make a difference.

What about a pistol caliber carbine, such as a semi-automatic MP5(/10 or /40), or even a Hi-Point. To me this would make sense, as it gives you some of the stability and range of a rifle (at least the amount of range that would be ideal for the distances enountered in a school), while, with the correct ammunition avoids problems of over penetration, thus preventing rounds from going through walls or BGs and hitting innocent students or faculty.

I voted AR15 type. Nerves would stop any accuracy with a hand gun. A shotgun is just too many pellets all over the place. A rifle is a little more controllable, big enough to be seen, will have long distance requirement, good stopping power...its what I'd choose if asked to go do the job of stopping an attack in a local school. (hope I never have to go)
Mark

I'd say that honoring, if not encouraging, concealed carry permits is the solution when practiced in addition to the standard practices of lockdowns, shelter in place and dynamic entry by law enforcement is the answer. But I don't have much hope for logic winning out.

Tex

While I went with M1 Carbine in .30 cal, I think -- within the parameters of the scenario -- that one of the CX4 configurations would probably be better.

CX4 can be had in 9, 40, 45 (mine is 9), it's light, and a really wide range of ammo (including frangibles) can be had for all three calibres.

Beyond the scope of the scenario, I would favor CCW.

An interesting side effect of this is that once the hopolophobia is overcome, the tendency toward institutionalized irresponsibility (read: "socialism") would be abated.

Oh, and bring back rifle teams. Not to show my age or anything, but they had rifle teams when I wuz a mite.

Carbines are great hell even ruger mini 14 or mini 30 would do a good job. Although I voted for high power rifle such as an m1a or maybe ar 10. I can definet agree with the over penetration debate but I still like to have the firepower if I would need it.

Now what about a less lethal option such as stun guns or bean bag type weapons ?

How about an .88 Magnum? It'll shoot through schools.

Autoloading pistols or revolvers with JHP rounds.
Shotguns with less lethal and standard ammuntions.

My reasoning is as follows.

-Easy to use
-no fear of over penetration
-fits the basic parameters for self defense


I have more but Im pressed for time hahaha

Much as I love the M1A, schools are in neighborhoods so 308 is just too much power
My vote is for AR-15 actually an M-4 type with frangible ammo and I prefer an Eotech sight Also a handgun, semi-auto for backup


My reasoning: School grounds also include play yards and fields which may mean 100 yard+ shots may be required so IMHO that tosses out pistol caliber rifles and shotguns


At my school we have "Code Red" which is essentially an armed intruder on the campus. The kids are to be locked into their rooms or the nearest room available if SHTF during lunch or recess. From there we huddle on the floor and wait for either the cavalry or the bad guy, whichever comes first, hence the need for the backup handgun.

In my fantasy world, there would be 3 AR's on the campus (with the teachers/staff trained appropriately in their use and when to use them as well as team tactics) They would be in the office and 2 classrooms in essentially a triangle configuration They would be in smash cases, ie if the glass is broken on that case, alarms go off at the PD, sheriffs and school district office, pinpointing where the case was broken and launching the flying squad.
The handguns would be worn CCW at all times and the wearers would also be carrying walkie-talkies as well
Lugging a rifle on the playground well, just doesn't look too good and also tells the BG who to shoot first.

Whatever Sky Marshals carry. Personally I'd opt for a Glock 19 or 17.

Anything in a "lock box" is going to be out of reach or, more likely, stolen long before it's needed.

Conceal carry by teachers and staff.

Knowledge of who is qualified and carrying is restricted. Need to know basis.

Training guidelines and requirements to be decided by each state.

Best to let individual select their own weapon. Must be concealed.

Participation is optional, of course.

Let the thugs assume all teachers are armed.

you need something that everyon can use, without any training hardly, and without much aiming, can put someone down.

There is no such gun! and do you really want untrained people firing guns in a crowded school?

Shotgun

Same as any indoor scenario, with lots of innocent bystanders. Keep it in a lock-box (small safe) close at hand. Only teachers with training should have them, and there should be some sort of identification system so the SWAT team doesn't mistake the teacher for the shooter when they get to campus. Oh, and the principal ought to know who in his building is armed and with what.

Leave the ARs to the SWAT guys. A rifle inside a building with lots of kids around just doesn't seem like a good idea to me!

Case could be made for a well-concealed pistol as well.

Really, though, a good intelligence network among the kids is MUCH more important than having a gun. You've got to know what's going on around you, who is disgruntled, and who is likely to be violent. Next on the list of things to have would be jiu jitsu and verbal conflict resolution skills. After that a cell phone on you at all times. A firearm is WAY down on that list.

I orginally suggested shotguns not because they're ideal or even good for the situation, but rather because they're effective and cheap. Schools aren't going to spring for anything that costs very much. They'd stick Hi Point carbines in those boxes if they thought they could get away with it. They'd buy a $500 lockbox and put a $150 gun in it all right...

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You say that like it'd be a bad thing, though.

Hi Point carbines are accurate, reliable, and shoot commonly available ammunition. Put the faux-Storm stock on, and they're even comfortable. $300 would get you (as a large scale institutional buyer, I assume you could swing a decent discount) a "pretty nice looking" carbine with a reflex optic.

My poll choice was "high powered" rifle, but it'd be a .243 FAL or somesuch. More thump than 5.56x45 and better trajectory than 7.62x39, not as much kick as .308.

TBH, a school shooting scenario would not require massive amounts of firepower; engagement distances could be decently long for a high school (if the shooter ventures outside), but I wouldn't plan on having to engage more than maybe two people.

in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

in lieu of letting CCL holders who know their own stuff carry their own stuff, i'd muse on shotguns with buck. you don't want would-be rambos to have guns they'll try and take precision HRT-style shots with, you want more of a hold-off weapon til the pros arrive, and one that is effective yet takes relatively little skill to employ. rifles are silly, you hear people worrying about overpenetration all the time, what happens when the trained teacher goes down and ms. lollypop fresh out of college freaks and empties the rest of the mag all over the place, bullets going through several rooms worth of drywall left and right? you don't need the range anyway, and pistols would require far more training to get people effective with. pump shotguns are cheap too.

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Finally a sane response.

A few Remmington 870s would be nice, but this kind of thing isn't practical. The most practical would be letting CCW teachers to carry their own.

Beretta CX4 Storm in 9mm, with 15 rnd mags loaded with light and fast HPs.

More precise, easier to shoot, handy, low recoil, low noise, accurate.