this could come to pass in your state too.

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alan

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Unnecessary and Intrusive: REAL ID is a real threat to Colorado
By Mike Krause Oct. 20th, 2006
If the Colorado Legislature does nothing but implement the REAL ID Act, as the federal government demands, then after May, 2008, all Colorado driver's license holders will have to be "re-enrolled" under as of yet unknown regulations decided by the federal Department of Homeland Security. In other words, the state driver's license will become a de-facto national ID and the Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles will be little more than a branch office of Homeland Security. Moreover, Colorado lawmakers (and thus Coloradoans) will have little or no say as to how driver's licenses are issued, what information will be attached to the license or who will have access to that information.

Rather than making the case for a federal takeover of state driver's license issuance, Republicans cynically attached REAL ID to an un-related emergency spending bill for combat operations in Iraq and Afghanistan, and for Tsunami relief, thus ensuring both passage and the President's signature in 2005.

REAL ID was marketed as a tool against terrorist travel and illegal immigration, but with even the slightest scrutiny, these arguments fall apart.

Shortly after passage of the act, a Rocky Mountain News editorial quoted a spokesman for the U.S. House Judiciary Committee, inadvertently making the case against REAL ID: "Eighteen of the 19 (Sept. 11) hijackers could've used their passports, but chose instead to use state-issued ID and driver's licenses and it allowed them to get on the planes without detection." In other words, terrorists who don't have U.S. driver's licenses can simply board a plane with a passport. As the News correctly asked, "So how exactly would this misguided law have stopped them?" The short answer is: it wouldn't have.

As for illegal immigration, during the 2006 special session, the Colorado General Assembly passed a state law denying certain state services to undocumented immigrants. In the first month after the law went into effect, the Colorado Division of Motor Vehicles caught over a thousand illegal immigrants trying to pass fake documents to obtain a driver's license.

In other words, a state law intended to affect only those already violating the law has accomplished most of what REAL ID claims to do...without a massive federal mandate making every Colorado license holder and applicant into a suspected terrorist or illegal alien.

Yet even this narrowly defined state law has managed to snare the law-abiding. As the Rocky Mountain News describes it, the daughter of Colorado State Senator Andy McElhany was denied her learners permit when the DMV refused to accept her U.S. passport as proof of citizenship. The good news is that such blundering can be easily addressed by Colorado lawmakers. The bad news is that in a few more years, the same people who are in charge of airport security and no-fly lists will be in charge of the DMV.

A recent report jointly released by the National Governor's Association, National Conference of State Legislators and American Association of Motor Vehicle Administrators estimates that implementation of REAL ID will cost states over $11 billion dollars. According to the National Governors Association, "The days of going to the DMV and getting your license on the same day are probably over, you will have to take all your documents as if you are applying for the first time." And you will get the pleasure of "applying for the first time" every five years.

But more than just expensive and intrusive, the act is also a fairly stunning case of federal coercion against the states.

Since Congress cannot legislate that states implement federal regulatory programs, REAL ID instead will deny anyone who does not carry a REAL ID compliant license after 2008 the ability to board a plane, open a bank account, or any other service or activity the federal government claims jurisdiction over.

As Jim Harper, director of information policy studies at the Washington D.C.-based Cato Institute notes, "If Congress wants every American to carry a national ID, Congress should vote for it openly, pay for it directly, and answer to voters itself. It should not slough its national ID policies onto the states."

The Colorado Legislature could help force Congress to do its own dirty work by refusing to implement REAL ID. While a U.S. passport would be acceptable for "federal" purposes, it would be interesting to hear Colorado's congressional delegation explain to constituents who don't hold a passport why it is they can no longer board a plane or open a bank account simply because they are not carrying the proper papers.
 
I hate the idea of this (defacto) National ID card. It creeps me out to no end. But I have trouble explaining to "normal" people what's so bad about it.

I try to spread the word about the coming National ID... I get shrugs.. so I say "yeah, but it's a National ID!! What's been a conspiracy for years is here!!" ... blank stare.

Tell me: In a nutshell, in language that will resonate with "normal" people, what's wrong with a National ID?
 
Could?

No, its coming, and faster than people think. Its in May 2008 when the states are to begin phasing in the changeover. Its not a national ID but every American will have one in conformance with the Department of Homeland Security. Issued by the individuals Dept. of Motor Vehicles.

Won't that be a fun line to stand in every 5 years? Requirements are that you prove who you are every 5 years. Prove that your social security number is not a fraud.

California passed a bill in August but the Govenator vetoed it because we have no inputs yet from the Federal gov, the Dept. of Homeland Security. How do the states get ready to implement if there is no guidance for the mandate?
http://info.sen.ca.gov/pub/bill/sen/sb_0751-0800/sb_768_bill_20060901_enrolled.html

Whats it about 1 1/2 years to go? What kind of lead times are needed to get the ID reading scanners online? How many of the state and Federal Databases have to be linked together?

How many of those speak the same database language?

How about the security of that data?

This is going to cost you and me megabucks. Then wait until the insurance companies and medical industry decide they need to see your papers too.

Taxes, please wait in line 4 sir.
Fees, please wait in line 5 sir.
Surcharges, please come back tomorrow sir.

Try to get someone on the phone. Imagine those menu options list.

I see an even larger underground economy and lifestyle change in the future.

RFID

We did it to ourselves.

Vick
 
Think outside the box. What's right about it? If the solution is either no better or worse than the "problem", then it sure isn't progress.

Ask them if they'd rather have the fed gov muck up things better taken care of at a state/local level. Use buzzwords like "bureacracy" and "DC" and "out-of-touch." IIRC, REAL ID is going to be harder to get and cost $. Point out the potential hassle of problems being bumped up the ladder of bureacracy and back-and-forth between DC and local DMVs.

The only justification would be if it provided some tangible benefits to the majority of the population. Make sure you point out that REAL ID won't make us any safer or more secure. If they're anti-Bush/GOP/big gov, you can build on that.
 
what's wrong with a National ID?

Like everything else the government fixes, its ever increasing control.

There will be no end to the data needing to be added to your RFID. Like a tax, once the program is implemented increasing the amount is easy.

Medical information readable by any government qualified entity with a reader.

Firearms information (for safety reasons of course) by any law enforcement, Dept of Health and Human Services, DHS and the Department of Education (they have to insure the safety of ALL children in their district.

Once all the data base are in tune with each other and talking amongst themselves, do you think it is going to be foolproof? Sure there will be redundancy built in and several sites will mirror the same info for hacking into one pipeline.

Another negative is the cost. The Feds are giving no money, its a mandate for the states to figure out how to pay. Won't be user fees because I think there are (gasp) people that won't use them.

Biggest negative of all is that the cost of protecting me is too high. I'd rather go it alone and live uncontrolled.

Its all control and I'm tired of all the potlickers thinking only they know how I should live and spend whats left of my income. They do not want the terrorist threat taken care of and put to bed. If they did we would not be in this position now as it would have been killed off up front.

Its another control.

Buck Rogers was a hick.

Vick
 
When I think of a national ID I keep hearing this foreign voice in my head saying....."Papers please!"

Its a bit of the old 666 mark of the beast stuff. Nothing good will come from this and a I'd bet a lot of bad will eventually be attributed to this plan.
 
You already have a national I.D. Its called a social security card, just attach a picture to it !!! I know, I know, its not to be used as I.D. but we ALL KNOW IT IS..Print a false one and see what happens...:p
 
Print a false one and see what happens...

Well, that depends on what you are. If you're a naturalized or natural-born US citizen, you go to federal prison for falsifying a Social Security number.

If you're an illegal alien and get caught doing it, you get sympathy, pats on the back and free social programs, because they "just wanted to work". :fire:
 
Well just short of having an Alpha / number tattooed or
branded on one's cheek or forehead with a matched
chip to be forced injected under one's epidermis for
whatever reason Big Brother deems proper,
there's really not much difference.

We'll go from private citizens to no more than numbers
as in the movie many yrs ago called THX1138.
Never thought it would happen. And here I believed
the GOP stood for "smaller" government.

But ya know what the really sad part of this is ?
We have no one but ourselves to blame..After it's
us who do the "hiring"...

B0002CHIKG.01._AA240_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg
 
interesting how they want us all ID'd and could careless about the invasion of the south.

Hate to say this but nobody cares.
Middle class, middle america wants lattes in 60 seconds or less.
sad really...
This goes on the catagory of "it will get worse before it gets better"
 
Jordan ended his post with the following:

Tell me: In a nutshell, in language that will resonate with "normal" people, what's wrong with a National ID?

-----------------------------------

With respect to those people who choose to bury their heads in the sand, a larger part of the population than you might think, possibly the "normal" people you mentioned, then look up in surprise when something big and nasty bites them roundly on the ass, I susect that virtually nothing you can say is likely to "resonate" with such people.

Otherwise, I suggest that you read through the other posts included in this discussion, there aren't that many, and you might perhaps get an idea or two. Sad to note though, as I mentioned before, I suspect that there isn't much that you can say to most of those "normal" people, for they simply aren't willing to face realities and or imminent possibilities or probabilities.

Note if you will that I say when not if, we become completely registered and otherwise regimented, all for our own good of course, and Papers Please becomes an all to commonly heard request, I'd be willing to bet my last dollar that the first thing to go will be "Please".

In 1759 or thereabouts, Benjamin Franklin offered the following bit of wisdom. He that sacrifices essential liberties to gain temporary security shall have neither security nor liberty. Altogether to many people have forgotten that simple admonition, or they were never learned much from whatever history classes they might have taken. Yes,Jordan, it is sad.

Finally, the late Lyndon Johnson, whom I had no love, for once offered the following. It's most certainloy applicable to this Read ID Law. When looking at any legislative proposal, we must look not at the good ends that it is claimed will accrue from the proper operation and enforcement of this legislation, but rather at the bad ends that will come from it's improper operation and enforcement. He was right on that point people.
 
For what it's worth...


Section 212(a)(3)(B): Terrorist Activities The INA defines "terrorist activity" to mean any activity which is unlawful under the laws of the place where it is committed (or which, if committed in the United States, would be unlawful under the laws of the United States or any State) and which involves any of the following:

* (I) The Hijacking or sabotage of any conveyance (including an aircraft, vessel, or vehicle).

* (II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.

* (III) A violent attack upon an internationally protected person (as defined in Section 1116(b)(4) of Title 18, United States Code) or upon the liberty of such a person.

* (IV) An assassination.

* (V) The use of any:
o (a) biological agent, chemical agent, or nuclear weapon or device.
o (b) explosive, firearm, or other weapon or dangerous device (other than for mere personal monetary gain), with intent to endanger, directly or indirectly, the safety of one or more individuals or to cause substantial damage to property.

* (VI) A threat, attempt, or conspiracy to do any of the foregoing.


Rather interesting tidbit of the Real ID act, yes? How is "safety" defined? Just thought I'd share.
 
I guess one could call it something close to
eminent domain pulled on us by the Gov ?
or should I say a splinter cell of the
Carlisle Group directing this behind the
scenes..:(

But I guess it's ok, because tomorrow is Football
Sunday. So who care how the Gov wants to
lead us down to it's proverbial stockpens, as long
as they're some good games on...:rolleyes:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8795.htm

Absent a political miracle in the Senate, within two years every American will need a conforming national ID card to participate in ordinary activities. This REAL ID Act establishes a massive, centrally-coordinated database of highly personal information about American citizens: at a minimum their name, date of birth, place of residence, Social Security number, and physical characteristics. The legislation also grants open-ended authority to the Secretary of Homeland Security to require biometric information on IDs in the future. This means your harmless looking driver’s license could contain a retina scan, fingerprints, DNA information, or radio frequency technology.
From Rep.Ron Paul.
 
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"Papers please!" you hear as the cold muzzle touches the back of your neck.:uhoh:

Oh well, at least I'll be in the grave before things go completely batty.:rolleyes:
 
The national ID always gets feathers ruffled on THR, but really there have been much bigger infringements on our rights during Bush's presidency that have caused much less commotion. Go figure. I guess that is because it is easy to see an ID card, and little things like free political speech are much more esoteric and harder to see.

Between my current driver license, social security card, income tax returns, patriot act notifications of financial transactions, C&R license, professional licence, etc., the government already knows most everything about me anyway.
 
* (II) The seizing or detaining, and threatening to kill, injure, or continue to detain, another individual in order to compel a third person (including a governmental organization) to do or abstain from doing any act as an explicit or implicit condition for the release of the individual seized or detained.

So if we don't cooperate with a terrorist, we become terrorists???:scrutiny:
 
Lone_Gunman writes:

The national ID always gets feathers ruffled on THR, but really there have been much bigger infringements on our rights during Bush's presidency that have caused much less commotion. Go figure. I guess that is because it is easy to see an ID card, and little things like free political speech are much more esoteric and harder to see.

Between my current driver license, social security card, income tax returns, patriot act notifications of financial transactions, C&R license, professional licence, etc., the government already knows most everything about me anyway.

-------------------------

The following is not intended to belittle such other infringements on our rights during Bush's presidency, or infringements on our rights during previous administrations, however as you say, that National Identity Card, most certainly would be "easy to see".

As to the other things you mention, various other licenses that you have, and so on, all true so far as it goes. Having said that, it remains, as you noted, that a National Identity Card would be EASY TO SEE, and that is why there is the commotion about it that you mention.
 
When I think of a national ID I keep hearing this foreign voice in my head saying....."Papers please!"

We long ago accepted the idea that it is OK for government agents to require us to produce ID on demand. "Papers please" is, and has been here for many years.
 
Ilbob is right. We have accepted this idea a long time ago. A lot of people are just willing to roll over and accept that the government is looking out for our best interests. It has been widely accepted that the government should look out for our national and personal security. Now this will just be seen as one of the measures to do that.

Lone Gunman hit the nail on the head when he talked about the fact that they know everything. Your taxes, your bank statements, your Social Sercurity cards, your drivers license and state IDs, as well as any other permits you may possess (CCW permits anyone) already allow them to know everything. Biometrics is just the next logical step for the government along with a standardized ID card. What about RFID chips and other things being installed? How far does it go?

As far as we want it to.
 
Illbob offered, and Tecumseh seems to agree with him on the following: "We long ago accepted the idea that it is OK for government agents to require us to produce ID on demand. "Papers please" is, and has been here for many years."

--------------------------

First place, what MIGHT prove to be the final word on this arises from a RECENT ruling by the USSC, that is to say within the last couple of years.

Second, is the following. Who exactly is the "we" mentioned above? The USSC has spoken on the subject and their words are powerful. Likely, some portion of the population will agree with them on this too, but as to what proportion of the populatiopn so thinks, feels or believes, that could well be an entirely different matter. Notwithstanding the weight behind USSC rulings, to say that their rulings are reflective of any particular proportion of The Will Of The People could turn out to be a very long stretch indeed, incorrect too.

In any event, and the following is my own personal opinion, the idea of a requirement for any form of National ID Card makes the hair on the back of my neck crawl.
 
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From the perspective of a normal person...

So what is the solution to preventing identity theft as it relates to criminal and fraudulent activity? I don't what to have to show my ID to some 7ft tall desk jockey, but I don't want the authorities coming after me because I'm a suspected suicide bomber (due to identity theft) either. Where is the happy medium?
 
Big Calhoun asks:

So what is the solution to preventing identity theft as it relates to criminal and fraudulent activity? I don't what to have to show my ID to some 7ft tall desk jockey, but I don't want the authorities coming after me because I'm a suspected suicide bomber (due to identity theft) either. Where is the happy medium?
---------------------

Re this Happy Medium, I do not know if there is one, nor if there should be one. However before belaboring the citizenry with ever more bureaucratic baloney, The Congress and the government should be required to demonstrate the effectiveness, the practicallity of such bureaucratic baloney as this Nation ID Card business would be. I do not know if they have actually so demonstrated or even tried. I suspect they haven't.

By the way, as to Identity Theft and the increasing problems therewith, consider this. Has either The Congress, via it's legislative powers or any government agency via it's statutory authority acted to significantly curb the misuse of Social Security Numbers, they being the heart's delight of Identity Theives, demands for your "Sosch" being found wherever one looks. Then there all those lovely and LEAKY government and private data bases, the ones like ChoicePoint for instance, that seem so conspiciously lacking in data security.

You see, looking at government claims of concern for your safety, and that old song about "It's all for your own good", this citizen is left singularly unimpressed, especially when it turns out that The Congress seems more concerned with the convenience of banks and credit card issuers, than it does with maintaining something I consider to be important, THE PRIVACY OF THE INDIVIDUAL.

I will now climb down from my soapbox.
 
So if we don't cooperate with a terrorist, we become terrorists???

No. That provision means that if you threaten someone to either perform an act (i.e. releasing a detainee) or refrain from an act (i.e. refusing to cooperate with the gov't and thereby assisting in the detainee's release), then you are a terrorist. It's really no different than the crimes of witness tampering or extortion.
 
That provision means that if you threaten someone to either perform an act (i.e. releasing a detainee) or refrain from an act (i.e. refusing to cooperate with the gov't and thereby assisting in the detainee's release), then you are a terrorist. It's really no different than the crimes of witness tampering or extortion.

And any of that is a good thing?
 
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