ATF blunders again

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RNB65

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From CNN.com:

By Kelli Arena, Scott Bronstein and Jim Spellman
CNN

MESA, Arizona (CNN) -- For nearly two years, Jay Dobyns led a double life. He rode alongside the Hells Angels, becoming a member of one of the nation's most feared criminal gangs. But at the same time, he was working as a federal agent in an effort to bring the Hells Angels down.

Jay Dobyns works for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the federal agency responsible for enforcing the nation's gun laws. His deep undercover work with the Hells Angels from 2001-2003 ultimately helped bring the indictment and trial of 16 gang members and their associates.

As a result, Dobyns was awarded a top cop award by the National Association of Police Organizations. He also was hailed on America's Most Wanted as one of the "Good Guys" who brings down the criminals.

But today, just a few years later, Dobyns says that after risking his life on assignment, he has been left vulnerable by the very agency that he proudly served.
Feeling abandoned

With his undercover work done and his real identity as a law enforcement agent exposed, Dobyns says the Hells Angels and other gangs enlisted by it came after him, issuing death threats. Dobyns claims that the ATF -- rather than protecting him -- abandoned him.

"There was a murder contract on me and there was what was called a green light list, which was circulating in the prison, which was a list of people that various gangs wanted killed," Dobyns told CNN.

In response, the ATF gave Dobyns a routine transfer with no special protection, despite his repeated protests. The ATF could have moved Dobyns and his family under what is known as a "threat policy" -- similar to the kind of protection the government routinely gives witnesses in organized crime cases.

But federal agents who go undercover don't automatically get a high level of protection, according to Dobyns and other ATF agents CNN interviewed.

"In order to save money, I was told it wasn't cost effective," Dobyns says.

Dobyns says he has moved himself and his family several times to elude those who've threatened to KILL HIM. He has filed a claim with the ATF for the emotional stress and financial burden he says hE'S had to bear as a result.
The ATF responds

In a note to CNN, ATF acting director Michael J. Sullivan wrote that privacy and personnel matters prohibit him from commenting directly on Dobyns' allegations, but he assured CNN that Dobyns' allegations are being fully reviewed by the ATF and the Department of Justice.

"[T]here is nothing more important to ATF and to me than the safety and protection of our employees and their families. We at ATF understand that we have a solemn responsibility to protect the people whom we charge to investigate and arrest the country's most violent criminals," Sullivan wrote.

But more than a dozen former and current ATF agents interviewed by CNN, many of whom have their own lawsuits, claims and serious concerns, said the ATF is failing to protect its agents.

Charlie Fuller is a 23-year retired veteran ATF special agent and a former top trainer of undercover agents, who wrote a manual on undercover work, "The Art of Undercover." He trained Dobyns and many other top ATF undercover agents.

"What happened to Dobyns is not an isolated incident," said Fuller. In many cases, he said, managers don't thoroughly understand the complexity of the undercover work or how to best work with and manage the agents once they're back in the real world.

He said agents are seen as troublemakers or retaliated against if they raise complaints or report problems.

"Threats like what Dobyns faced -- this is the most serious thing an ATF agent can face -- the threats against his family," said Fuller. "How could they ignore something like that?"

Asked about Fuller's claims, the ATF said it would have no further comment for now, saying it would stand on Sullivan's previous statement.

"As ATF executes its mission to prevent terrorism, reduce violent crime and protect the public, we will continue to place the highest value on ensuring the safety of our employees and their families," Sullivan said.
 
One would think that a LE agency would be willing to spend whatever it took to protect its undercover agents, if nothing else, so as to not make potential non-LE witnesses that might want to enter the witness protection program somewhat less nervous.

There are periodic stories about people who enter the witness protection program that make me wonder if I would trust it. And you got to wonder how they can possible fake up enough original documents these days to even make a credible background for someone. Its no longer a matter of slipping a few pieces of paper into the system here and there. A lot of data is stored in non-government databases that might not get "fixed" quite right.
 
Sorry, I can't seem to find any pity for someone who volunteered to join the batfe, volunteered to go undercover, then decides that maybe that wasn't quite the right decision for a career path. Is it surprising that possibly some of the people that he first befriended then helped to prosecute and get put in jail are a little p.o.ed at him.:scrutiny:
 
Jay Dobyns works for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, the federal agency responsible for enforcing the nation's gun laws.

What ...no comment on that line? What about Alcohol and Tobacco...not to mention that he testified in rape, murder, and extortion cases? You can see where that writer's mind is...perhaps all writer's minds. After all...how can you not feel bad for an enforcer of gun laws?
 
I have sympathy for him. Just because the ATF is not the most firearm friendly agency out their does not mean that you show a lack of respect and care for another human being who went into deep cover for three years and garnered 16 indictments against people willing to murder and commit other serious crimes. Why he ought not be experiencing various life problems as a result of honest death threats upon him, perhaps his family is no mystery.

I also think the ATF should honor his request and probably will the more the media get a hold of it.
 
I feel sorry for his family caught up in the middle of it. I cant say I am suprised by the ATFs disregard towards the saftey of one of its own and after 16 years of working in the belly of the beast I dont know why this agent is either. The ATF doesnt care about anyone. Not you, not me, and apparently not one of their own agents......huh how about that.
 
"Welcome to The High Road, an online discussion board dedicated to the discussion and advancement of responsible firearms ownership. It is the declared mission of this board to achieve and provide the highest quality of firearms discussion on the Internet, a standard set by the discussion board The Firing Line from 1998-2002."

This applies to the Legal & Political forum as well as to all the others. Every member who registered agreed to that philosophy.

For all that I resent the irrational behavior of the leadership and the hostile behavior of some of the employees of the BATFE, I see no reason to try to turn THR into Democratic Underground.

Art
 
The BATFE is an organization dedicated to enforcing unjust laws and trampling on the freedoms of others. Thus, employees of the agency actively and directly contribute to the erosion of liberty.

Now, as an individual human being, I'm sure Agent Dobyns is a fine person- In the same way that I think most of the millions of men who fought for the Nazis were good people, with families, who thought they were doing best for their country.

Sorry though. This guy doesn't get any sympathy from me.
 
C-w, are you against laws pertaining to IEDs? To laws against poisonous booze?

If there are to be taxes on alcohol and tobacco, is it illogical to have an agency involved in overeseeing the collection thereof?

Our beloved mediahcrities give the publicity to the firearms part of the BATFE deal. Regardless, that's just part of the deal.

That's why the word "some" needs to be used more often.

Art
 
C-w, are you against laws pertaining to IEDs? To laws against poisonous booze?

If there are to be taxes on alcohol and tobacco, is it illogical to have an agency involved in overeseeing the collection thereof?

If one felt so moved to defend the ATF, it might be more productive (and relevant to the discussion) to post the positive aspects of the ATF as they relate to the article in question, rather than ask some cute rhetorical questions unrelated to the article...
Pablo Escobar did a lot of commendable charity work, too.

That's why the word "some" needs to be used more often.
He used the word "most" in a complementary way; inserting "some", as you suggested, would make the statement more critical than his original statement?

Just a couple observations...
 
I've seen this kind of thing again, and again, and again. There is nothing the government does better than hang it's people out to dry.

I feel sorry for this man, I truly do. Nothing will age you faster than laying awake at night wondering if every noise you hear is someone coming to harm you or your family. However he, and all other undercover people should not actually be surprised. The BATF, the FBI, IRS, DEA, ABDCERGTHTR etc etc etc have been "hanging out to dry" basic honest American citizens for years
in the pursuit of their own legal agendas. No one, not even an employee of a big alphabet gov agency should be surprised at this conduct and none of them should be surprised when it comes back to bite them in the backside.

When you get in bed with the devil you should not complain when you wake up in hell.
 
Art, It's my position that the peaceable manufacture, distribution, or possession of any object- explosives, booze, or otherwise- isn't a matter for government intervention. So yes, my statement stands about the folks at the BATFE. Granted, the people working to stop poisonous liquor production present a less egregious threat to liberty, but I'm almost certain their efforts account for a comparatively small portion of the agency's focus.

But, aside from that, the agent in question most definitely worked to enforce unjust laws.
 
Wrong Mission

. . . working as a federal agent in an effort to bring the Hells Angels down.

I'm not an expert on the various motorcycle clubs, so I can't express a valid opinion on the Angels. I'm not aware, however that they've been outlawed.

I'm sure that with the plethora or laws designed to create criminals out of thin air, there was ample "cause" to arrest several of the "gang" members.

Our good agent evidently believed in what he was doing. Sad really, that so many "enforcement" personnel never take the time & trouble to grasp what they're into.

The Angels, I'm sure, have their own take on this. I'm sure a number of them know, without understanding precisely how, that their rights were trampled. Others will simply know that "the code" has been violated, and that retribution is called for.

In my humble view, the ATF cooked up a bad mission, then decided that dealing with the collateral damage was too much trouble.

The AFT isn't working well in its current configuration, and is pursuing some goals that are simply wrong from the start. Tobacco? Give it up. That really doesn't need any more regulation than corn flakes. Alcohol? It's a food. Make sure it complies with food standards. Firearms? At all? Please?

While my heart goes out to the agent who believed he was acting in a just cause, the agency itself is a bad idea poorly implemented.

It needs to go away.
 
I am wondering if he knew just how bad it will be because righteous or not,he is the one that has to deal with it, not his employers, who usually just give them a quiet thank you party and a plane ticket to nowhere.

Now he gets to think about it for the rest of his life.
 
However he, and all other undercover people should not actually be surprised. The BATF, the FBI, IRS, DEA, ABDCERGTHTR etc etc etc have been "hanging out to dry" basic honest American citizens for years

Yep. And it ain't just the undercover people and the feds either.

This country needs to take a good, long look at itself and decide where it wants to be ten or twenty or thirty years down the road. The direction we are headed is not looking good right now.
 
The BATFE is generally dishonorable in its dealings with EVERYONE, it's own agents included.

During the '90s, the then BATF was sued by its own Black agents for racial discrimination and harassment. The OK City office was well known for the Klan related material and other racist items displayed. The Black agents eventually won a $4.6 MILLION settlement.

A serving BATF supervisor was discovered to be organizing Whites only parties out of his office, using BATF resources. There is abundant photo and video documentation of the goings on. Items promoting racial violence were widely trafficked in at these events. BATF agents known to have attended these gatherings were removed from the church arson investigation of the '90s to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

In general, what the BATF(E) touches, it taints.
 
The agent did his job and there should be a plan with what to do with these agents when they come out. The plan should be understood from the start.

Many LEO's want to dress up on weekends and play bad boy biker. Sometimes rubbing elbows with various members of motorcycle clubs at parties and social events. Many of these officers think it's cool to hang out with the outlaw bikers. There has been a surge in cop motorcycle clubs many of which wear three piece patches. Some LEO's get so friendly that they would share information or obtain information for being accepted (or so they think.) The information gained from officer friendly could lead to big danger for someone working undercover.
 
I look upon this as a sign that the Lord God delivers justice in mysterious ways.
 
C-W, I agree that there are way too many unjust and unconstitutional laws--IMO about this latter aspect--but they exist. Part of the real world we're stuck with. I'd be happy as a pig in a corn crib if most of the laws pertaining to BATFE were rescinded, and the agency could mostly deal with their work with explosives.

And we're stuck with people who do believe in them as good and necessary, as threads here about the drug wars have shown.

But I guess I'm "humanitarian" enough to believe that people should not be gleefully railed against when they incur hazard from a lawful job. That comes across to me as petty and spiteful.

That this guy was shafted by the BATFE system is heinous. There is nothing unusual about the job the guy was doing; what should be dramatically unusual is the agency's abuse of him.

Which seems to me, my opinion, as all too commonplace among governmental bureaucrats of any agency, at any level of government. They don't want to pay the full costs of "doing business".

Art
 
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