Out of control government; what REAL action can we take?

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We all must hang together, or assuredly we shall hang separately.
And since that will never happen, we're all boned.

A country, a political unit, is a concept that hangs togather on the simple idea that I have shared interests with the rest of the people in that unit. Therefore, for country X, as an X-ian, what's in the best interest of most X-ians is probably in mine too. But not always, and so sometimes in the interest of preserving a mutually beneficial arrangement I have to take one for the team.

Now that's fine when it's you and five other people. But eventually, you fall for the hot X-ian next door, get married and produce X-ian number 6. And while your interests still coincide with the group's, you come across that situation where they don't more and more, especially since you interests now include the interests of 5 and 6. But the good news is, you've got a voting block; get one more X-ian to go your way and whatever you want passes in the X-ian Council. But you'll only use that in the case of dire emergency.

And so one day you need something that's not really in the best interest of the whole group, but is in the interest of your voting block. And it's really small. And your wife's nagging constitutes a dire emergency. And you need that last vote, and so you offer X-ian 4 a cow, and since that's the high bid you get his vote.

Congratulations, X is now America 2007.

Sometimes we need to be reminded, but we are Americans first.
But didn't you know, patriotism is a dirty word; it's jingoism, and ethnocentrism at it's worse. Suggesting that the country come before your tribe? The horror!

Everything is fine when Americans understand that politically, the goal should be what's in the best interests of America. Even if you disagree as to the method, you can operate in good faith because of the common goal. But realistically the only units that function in America society are the tribes; black, white, conservative, progressive, religious, non-religious. I gave up on this country once I realized that even here, where there should be a single uniting factor, a conceptual glue upon which to build coalition, many members view each other as the Enemy because of their religious choices, skin color, party affiliation, heck over their musical preferences. With no coalition, you can't unite under that concept of common interest. Without that, you don't have a country, you have a bunch of people that vaguely share geography.

Unfortunately, countries exist for a reason. Human rights and international law are fine ideas, nice to have. But nine times out of ten the actual existence of those things is in direct corelation to your possession of lots of guns and troops, and a willingness to employ them. Countries are very useful for that sort of thing. Humanity relearns that lesson periodically. And eventually after enough destruction and bloodshed we remember that there are worse things in the real world than disliking whom your neighbor prays to (or doesn't pray to), provided he's a decent shot and willing to stand the night watch.
 
If New York State could get a divorce from NY City, that would be a powerful voice for more consevative views and actions.
But Whitewolf, everything you said above this are ideas OPPOSED by the conservative machine - political, media and religious.

(And, to a great extent the 'liberal' machine such as it continues to exist, but you point to conservatives).
 
I think it was Larry Niven who pointed out that our society is so wealthy through and through that our ridiculous (by historical standards) tax burden doesn't cause widespread rebellion. Most Americans will not care about the staggering amount of taxes they pay because 1) they are nowhere near starving due to taxes and 2) (and more important IMHO) they are aware of only a small portion of taxes that they pay.
The gov't is out of control because no one has the power of the purse over it anymore. It can borrow money with nearly no restrictions, and since most Americans draw paychecks with their taxes deducted, there will be no tax revolt because it's impossible to stop paying all your taxes. Even if you do, some nice people with guns will come and tell you to pay your taxes or go to jail.
So I say this: Wanna get the gov't under control? Get the power of the purse back.
 
Lupinus said:
Ah but mongo here is the problem.

For years our goverment has turned from a republic what is effectivly a democracy.
Agreed. And democracies are doomed to fail.

As a student of history, I am always amazed that we continue to make the same mistakes. Human nature = (fear vs. greed) and Human nature <> common sense.

Ah well. Keep your tools in working condition...
 
One of the better threads here- I agree with most already posted and it appears that there are a multitude of causations to blame for where we are and what we have become as a nation- I see no cure in the immediate future and a slippery downhill slope ahead-

All civilizations before us have risen and fallen for many of the ills with which our society is now plagued- I see no reason to believe we are any different than the civilizations of Babylonia, Egypt, Greece, Rome, The British Empire etc- All had their rise and fall- We are not special and different than those before us because we are cursed with being human with all the failings that entails- Perhaps this is just the way it is supposed to be and the only thing unique about us compared to those before us is that ours will be shorter lived-

We have lived on top of the mountain that our fathers built and have done nothing to make it higher- Rather we have been enjoying the sled ride down the other side- When we reach the bottom will we have the fortitude to look back, gather ourselves, and start the climb back up?- The only thing that might save us is perhaps best expressed by H G Wells when he said, "If you make men sufficiently fearful or angry, the hot red eyes of the caveman will glare out at you"- Can we as as society ever become that fearful or angry?- There's the zillion dollar question!
 
Junyo, the whole idea of the US is to have many different "tribes" existing side-by-side. In most nations, the society is characterized by a particular ethnic identity--British, Chinese, Indian, etc. The heart of the US experiment is the idea that people can be united without the use of ethnic and religious factors.
 
Junyo, the whole idea of the US is to have many different "tribes" existing side-by-side. In most nations, the society is characterized by a particular ethnic identity--British, Chinese, Indian, etc. The heart of the US experiment is the idea that people can be united without the use of ethnic and religious factors.
Tell that to the Scots, Welsh, English and Irish in Britain. Heck, the national dish of Britian is pretty much curry, thanks to the Indian population. Talk to people from other countries, and I think you'll find that nations that you'd think were monolithic blocks of countrymen have tons of little factions and groups.

Very few countries of any size have an ethnically or religiously homogeneous population, and that's next to impossible in any kind of modern free society. Tribal cohesion is easy, you're forced to have common interests by the group identity. And that's why the American experiment is failing; no one is interested in embracing the shared identity of being an American first. Without that conceptual glue to hold all the tribes togather, the political unit falls apart.
 
We are being ruled by a government who is serving special interests. President Bush is paying back big oil (huge tax breaks) for financing his elections. The Democrats are not without sin either. Clinton signed many trade deals sending american jobs overseas. Corporations have discovered a "world economy" and is exploiting it. They are manufacturing goods anywhere they can do it cheaply and then selling where they can. Borders are nothing to them. They move freely with the blessing of their bought politicians. We will be mere pawns in our own country until we eliminate the influence of special interests. The question is how. I fear it will take more effort than Americans are willing to put forward. :fire:
 
The only effective and consistent way to solve problems is to accurately analyze their cause.

I've got news for you all. The government is not out of control. It is under the strict control on mass media.

Elected officials do just what their supervisors say. Who are their supervisors? Those who have the power of suggestion, the power of scrutiny, the power of repetition, the power of censorship and the power of smear.
That is not us my friends.

Politicians are the kind of people who are motivated by their quest for high social position. The ONLY way they can attain that and keep it is to cooperate with the wishes of mass media.
Mass media need only suggest what it wants by saying"_____legislation is expected to pass" and all the congresscattle know what is expected from them.

We no longer have representative government...not representative of us anyway.
 
We will be mere pawns in our own country until we eliminate the influence of special interests. The question is how. I fear it will take more effort than Americans are willing to put forward.
Who's interest, that don't happen to coincide with yours, aren't a 'special interest'?

Not trying to be a smarta$$, but realistically, unless you drive a nuclear powered car, you have an interest in the oil business, and support it, and make it profitable. Unless you make all your own goods (from raw materials) you benefit from cheaper products from overseas. And a lot of the reason that companies move overseas is the special interest group of union labor.

Every single person is in some special interest group on another, so calling that the problem is a bit like saying that the cause of air quality issues is all the darn air...
 
problem is is that everybody/special interest is using Govt for their own design and if it is at the expense of others (which most of it is) these americans could give a rats a$$.

You will always will have special interest groups....always...its human nature. But now you know longer have public "works" based on group using harmless persuasion to get people to change behavior you now have americans using the Federal Govt to force the change. www.mskousen.com/Books/PvF/pvftext.html
 
jlbraun,

Red and Blue America is not a myth. The colors that map uses are more than a bit deceptive. Somebody posted the same map redone with contrasting colors and the difference was obvious.

David
 
Dude if the government is so out of control that they are a threat to your life the best course of action is to LEAVE and never return.
 
All this red vs. blue and dimocrat vs. repukclican stuff is rather irrelevant. They both have the same supervisiors. Shrub undestood quite well whose hands it would fall into when he pushed the (anti) Patriot Act.

The Republican party has not lifted a finger to protect our Constitutional rights and niether will the Democrats. Look higher up the ladder for the problem.
 
LGN said:
Dude if the government is so out of control that they are a threat to your life the best course of action is to LEAVE and never return.

Wouldn't that be antithetical to the liberal agenda? Anyone who would feel threatened is most likely an independent chap, working hard, making his own way in life, probably owns a company, making a lot of money, and paying a lot of taxes to that same government whose supporters are feeding at that government trough filled by that chap fearful of that out-of-control government. 'Tis better to rid that government of those who push that liberal agenda. That would require removing only about half of those legislators. That's much cheaper than exiling the millions of the rest of us citizens who are fearful of the fearsome crowd in DC.

I'd rather stay and espouse and vote - and fight if necessary - and put the governance of this land back under the scrutiny of, and obedience to, the Constitution for the United States of America. To that end, I claim and exercise my right to keep and bear arms as protected by the Constitution just in case. You never know when the soap box and ballot box might be destroyed. We'll need empty cartridge boxes to make new ones.

'Twould be better for you to go form your own country somewhere. Don't bother writing a Constitution, though. You wouldn't adhere to it anyway.

Woody

Look at your rights and freedoms as what would be required to survive and be free as if there were no government. Governments come and go, but your rights live on. If you wish to survive government, you must protect with jealous resolve all the powers that come with your rights - especially with the Right to Keep and Bear Arms. Without the power of those arms, you will perish with that government - or at its hand. B.E. Wood
 
'Twould be better for you to go form your own country somewhere. Don't bother writing a Constitution, though. You wouldn't adhere to it anyway.
That's what I always disliked about liberals. They have made a name for themselves by using the Constitution for toilet paper and spending billions of dollars that weren't theirs. By those standards, Bush is the worst crooked liberal since LBJ.
It's time to unload this left vs. right silliness and focus on their bosses.
 
Ratzinger_p38,

I looked for it last night and couldn't find it. It was posted about 2 years ago. I saved a copy on my old hard drive. If I get some time I'll pull out the backup I made and look there as well.

David
 
What's the sense of just focusing on Bush? You really think things are gonna get better when he is gone? Do you think any one of the possible candidates running for pres. from the major parties is going to influence change FOR US? Hillary? Obama? Mccain? Guiliani? Which one would YOU trust? Well- it doesn't matter 'cause NONE of them trust YOU! THAT is the problem, not Bush. HE indeed went too far with many acts, but lets see just how many are overturned by the next politician he hands all that extra power to.

And RED VS BLUE is definitely relevant - as the country IS divided; 1/2 the country wants a system quite opposed to the other 1/2. IF there was a brand new govt put in place tomorrow, there is no way you could get a substantial majority of the people to agree on what its powers should be, or the limits to that power, or even to recognize that the power COMES from the people, and not from some public-funded tyrant-controlled agency who will give you just enough "free" stuff to keep your mouth shut. This is nothing new, and it certainly wasn't created by Bush, nor will it be over when he is gone.
 
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