My take on the "double tap."

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Lurper said: FWIW, many of the top competitors in the world (Leatham, Shaw, Jarrett, myself and others) have taught these techniques to some of the most elite military and police units in the world.

OK. Congratulations.

If you fail to see the differences between training the military and police from training Armed Citizens, then I suggest you limit offering your instruction to those groups.


If you believe shooting without conscious thought is the highest possible skill level, and a goal one should seek to attain, that's your opinion. I can find just as many well known and legendary names in the training community that feel you have advocated a completely irresponsible postition. That's certainly going to be a hard position to defend if anyone has to answer for their actions in a shooting.


Hey, you can personalize this all you want, and play the role of a martyr slain for revealing some unbelievable truth to the world. I never said you can't do it. I never said anyone else can't be trained to do it. Nor did I tell you to stay out out S&T. I am telling you its not a good idea to take that position when using a gun in a defensive role. But its your choice, and you are free to do whatever you want in life as long as you are willing to pay for it. There are consequences for our actions.
 
Just to clarify:
You personalized when you first requested me to provide my qualifications, then by asking me to not post in S&T. I didn't post those because frankly I didn't see any reason to. It appears to me that anyone who does not agree with your opinion of how civilians should be trained is discouraged from posting. Sort of like not fitting in a clique.

You are free to think that there is a difference between teaching civilians and LEO/military, but there isn't. That's no different than saying only LEO/military should possess firearms. In fact, last time I checked civilians used firearms to stop crimes more often than the police do.

You can show me as many well known and legendary names in the training community as you like and I can show you that few if any possess the technical skills that the shooters I mentioned possess. That is why we teach technique, not tactics. BIG difference. You are confusing conscious thought with conscious decision. They are not the same. Show me a trainer who advocates consciously deciding to fire each and every shot and I'll show you a fool. Conscious thought requires a decision for each and every action. That will get you killed. Training to the point that those actions do not require thought is the correct way to train. If you ask around, I think your well known and legendary names will agree.

Having been in a few armed confrontations, I'll gladly defend my position. At least I will be alive to. I have no more need to play the role of martyr than you do to play the role of Holy Paladin Crusading against the unwashed heathen masses who may discover a secret skill held sacred by members of the Order. In reality, civilians have always far surpassed the military/LE communities when it comes to pistolcraft. So I think it's safe to say that there will be no increase in the amount of LEO's killed due to the public watching my "Double Tap" video.

I bear no animosity toward you Ken, but you took it too far. I respected your private requests and posted no more videos, I just replied to existing posts, yet you insisted on chastizing and lecturing me when it's obvious from you messages and posts that you don't even understand the concept I'm talking about.


Look, I don't want to sit here and fire volleys back and forth or fight to get in the last word. I complied with your requests and I will post "training videos" in the general or competition areas. Please stop busting my balls and trying to force me into your philosophical paradigm.
 
You are confusing conscious thought with conscious decision.
The concept really is pretty easy to understand. It's like driving a car. Suppose I am driving down an icy Wyoming roadway when the back end breaks loose. Any driver worth his/her salt will immediately identify what is happening through various inputs and then take remedial action on an almost subconcious level. We won't have the time to conciously think about how to go about correcting for a primary skid, secondary skid, and so forth. If you have to think while you should be acting, you will end up in the ditch every time. Driving a gun after the decision to shoot has been made is not that much different than driving a car. Then again, the world is full of some pretty crappy drivers. :)
 
It seems everyone needs to slow down...

I think it is more similar to H2H defense. Hopefully you will be trained enough that you will not have to consciously think about how to hold your hand and move your arm and shift your body weight in order to properly strike the target and stop and/or kill the assailant.

Besides, even though I haven't been doing this long I thought you weren't suppose to place your finger on the trigger until you were prepared to, and intended to, fire. It seems that the conscience part of the process should be long before you place your finger on the trigger.

I agree that it might not be either a Strategy or a Tactic but I would hope that we don't censor to the point dissuading people from sharing important technical information about the shooting process.
 
sfc123,

The High Road only "censors" personal attacks and foul language. I deleted none of Lurper's posts, nor did I lock any of the threads.


Lurper inaccurately shared some details of PM conversations we were having. To clear up any misconception for the membership, I never asked him to leave S&T entirely. I did ask that he cease his attempts to train our membership on-line in advanced handgun skills. The Staff is right now working on a framework for the position we will follow and what we will allow in S&T on the matter of on-line training. Once we decide upon all the details, I'll pledge we'll come back before the membership with those.


Lurper has some valuable skills to offer. He clearly has achieved an advanced level of shooting, far and above what many people will be able to perform without sponsorship or entensive training. I have asked that he take his training and his philosophies on the actual decisions guiding when we shoot to Competition. While the shooting skills DO have value, this training philosophy isn't really appropriate for S&T. I hope you can all follow these discussions there, and encourage anyone who finds it valuable to seek out that instruction from him.


As to what governed the decision we made - When using a gun in a defensive role, we are both morally and legally responsible for each and every round we fire. I'm not suggesting anything about how we shoot our guns, or our speeds, or what we use to arrive at our decision to employ the gun. I will say that training to use a gun defensively with our conscious mind disengaged presents problems to us. Its hard to reconcile those two paradigms.

I have no problem with, and advocate, the goal of learning our gun handling skills to the level of unconscious competency. What this means is we can then devote much more of our mental faculties to analyzing the actual problem before us, and solving it, whatever form that solution takes. Advocating unconscious responses, and unconscious acts, causes practical problems for us. You can train into that if you choose, just so long as you understand the consequences for it and are willing to pay the price when it causes a problem.
 
Advocating unconscious responses, and unconscious acts, causes practical problems for us.
I have no problem with, and advocate, the goal of learning our gun handling skills to the level of unconscious competency.
:confused:

Isn't manipulating the handgun at the level of "unconsious competency" exactly what Lurper is advocating? :rolleyes:
 
Ron, I didn't take it that way. I would like to, but all I have to go off is what is said.

Re-read the entire thread, without any preconceptions about what you think the point is, and see what impression you come away with.
 
Note from Xavier:

I took the liberty of moving this thread from S&T to competition with the hope that it could be better appreciated here. Hopefully this note will clear up any confusion over some of the previous posts. Now back to the thread.
 
Wow, what a thread to read for my first visit here. All I can say is that maybe someday Mr. Bullfrog will understand what Brian is saying. There's a whole level of shooting a handgun that he doesn't seem to be willing to admit exists.

It's not about surrendering your ability to make the decision to shoot, and if you should shoot or not, it's that after you have decided to shoot, with legal provocation, you can do so at a level that requires no conscious interaction to accomplish. Should the reason to shoot no longer exist you will not shoot anyway. When shooting 'unconsciously' you are not a robot, you are aware, even hyper-aware, of everything going on around you. This is because you conscious mind has not tunnel visioned in on what you are doing.

If you have not achieved this level of shooting you cannot understand what happens when you do achieve it.

Achieving this level almost caused me to stop shooting competition, I shoot because it's fun and for a wile I couldn't understand why it didn't seem fun anymore. It took me a little wile to understand that when you're really doing it right there is no sensation at all. Just a neutral awareness of everything, no good, no bad, just awareness.
 
Wow, what a thread to read for my first visit here. All I can say is that maybe someday Mr. Bullfrog will understand what Brian is saying. There's a whole level of shooting a handgun that he doesn't seem to be willing to admit exists.
The disagreement between the OP and Mod was not because the Mod did not believe this type of shooting was attainable, but rather, because he did believe it was attainable.

The thread was in another forum, and Bullfrog Ken was moderating it for that forum. When the thread was moved to a more suitable forum by myself, Ken's posts were retained for clarity and an explanation was inserted.

Not all shooting techniques are applicable to all uses of a firearm. That does not diminish their value in the correct modality. There is the natural assumption that when a thread is posted in a specific forum, such as Competition, or Revolvers, that thread is in reference to the stated subject of the forum. There are often stickied posts at the top of each forum to further guide members to the forum's intended subject.

If there is a sudden influx of new members flocking to this thread to post their views of forum moderation, the thread that caused their irritation will simply disappear. For good. That does not benefit anybody. Let's get back to the original post, not the debate it spawned because of it's placement in another forum.
 
Lurper, thanks.

And thanks to the Mods for moving this to competion because I wouldn't have seen it in S&T because I don't go there. I don't shoot to train to defend myself, just like I don't wrestle to practice beating people up. I shoot because it is fun! I wrestle because it is fun! I have been doing both since I was seven so about forty years. There are similarities in both disciplines, the decision to participate i.e. shoot or take down is a conscious decision, the decision how to participate is a conscious decision i.e. pick target or choose technique or move. With enough practice the action is subconscious as in set up and do it. If you stop to analyze each part of the action not only will you not achieve optimun effect at the time of the action, you will never achieve optimun effect, period. The only way be have optimun effect at almost any physical pursuit is to practice to the point of subconscious execution of the intended action. Does that mean that once the conscious decision has been made that it cannot be aborted, modified or redirected? The short answer is NO! With practice a person can abort, modify or redirect as fast as his or her senses alert their brain to a change in circumstance, according to Lurper about 1/24th of a second for visual information, and I would say that seems about right. Back to the thread . Lurper, if you still are monitoring this thread can you give any hints or tips on how to follow sight picture through from shot to shot. I seem to have to go through the sight set up for each shot, and although fairly accurate it is no way even near as close to as fast as the Demo video, even with a very low recoil/muzzle flip .22.
Thanks again for the video,
Wheeler44
 
Wheeler
You can train yourself on and off the range. Part of the process is to focus your concentration. There is a simple excercise for that:
You will need: a blank sheet of white (unlined) paper, a fine point red marker or med point felt tip pen, optionally a stopwatch.
Make a dot in the center of the sheet of paper. Find a quiet place with a table. Place the sheet on the table in front of you, the stopwatch next to it. Take 7 or 8 deep breath, in through your nose, out through your mouth relaxing as you breathe. Now, focus on the dot in the center of the paper. The purpose is to reach the point where the little voice in your head is silent. It will take some practice. When you are there, use the stopwatch to see how long you can maintain that focus (I hold the stop watch so that the start button is under my trigger finger so it is just like pressing the trigger). Start with 15 seconds. Then go to 30,45,60,120, until you reach about 3 or 4 minutes. Do that for 5 minutes or so as often as possible (ideally daily), and you will build your concentration.

At the range, learn to "Call" your shots. Set up a target far enough away that cannot see your hits. Focus on the front sight (I am assuming you're using iron sights), place the sight on the center of the target, slowly press the trigger while focusing on the sight. When the shot breaks, maintain the sight in focus and see it move through the recoil cycle. If you have a neutral grip/stance it will come back to its starting point. Lower the gun or re-holster. Say where your shot hit (ie 8 o'clock c zone or 11 o'clock 9 ring). Move forward far enough so that you can see your hit. Check how accurate your "call" was. If you are seeing your sight, your call should be accurate. You should have about 90% accuracy. The main thing is to remove conscious thought - trust your eyes and sight. The bullet will hit where the sight was when the shot broke. It can't happen any other way.
Try that and let me know how it works.
 
I have found that a big stumbling block to tracking the front sight is blinking. once you stop that, it is alot easier to concentrate on the front sight. Then you being to see more, tracking the front sight, the brass ejecting, and the gun cycling. the more you relax, the less you try to force yourself to see, the more you end up seeing. Then you will get to the point Luper is talking about. Seeing all you need to see, reacting to it without the thinking about it,

I have only reached that point a few times at a match, where steel would fall, but I did not remember comfirming sight picture.
 
Thanks again Lurper

I viewed the rest of the videos posted. I am practicing neutral grip and concentration. I hope to improve much, with your advice. I appreciate, very much, you taking the time and effort to help us (me) shoot better. If you are ever in SW Washington let me buy you a soda, coffee, or beer, your choice.

Wheeler44
 
Excellent info Lurper.

after I have become proficient with a given pistol, I start double tap training... everytime, all the time.

two shots will leave my carry pistol, every time I draw and intend to shoot. its how I train. every target gets no less than two, in multi-target scenarios.

"CNS/Hostage Shots" scenario are the only exception..

ip
 
Interesting Thread

It's strange the twists that a thread can take...from a simple video on putting two shots through cardboard quickly and accurately, to quasi-religious debates over shooting systems, to the relative risks of exposing somewhat advanced shooting techniques and combat mindset to the Armed Citizen, and finally discussions regarding some of the most essential mental aspects to achieving the highest competency with a firearm.

Lurper's video on Double Tap's was entertaining to watch. The hits looked good at that distance, and the careful observer would note is solid preparation before each pair.

Over the years, I've found the debate between hammers/dt's/controlled pairs as well as the Point Shooting vs. Rapid Sighted Fire to be much about semantics of terminology. In the end, most of the practicioners are doing essentially the same thing, picking out a target and putting fire onto that spot as rapidly and accurately as they can. Depending on how their brain translates what they are doing and what they communicate they are doing...you would think it was the difference between night and day, but there is generally more common ground between the top instructors and shooters than differences in substance. It's their perspective and communication approach which will be different. Some messages will resonate better with some audiences. In the end, the consumer of the information needs to be able to internalize it and apply it successfully.

Deferring forum politics for the moment, Ankeny nailed it when describing unconscious skill with the foul weather skid illustration. Just because something occurs instinctively, doesn't mean it wasn't done intentionally. It also doesn't follow that an instinctive (subconscious mind initiated) act cannot be controlled. I think one individual put forward the hypothesis of "predetermined commitment" being a prerequisite for high speed transitions. While unstoppable commitment certainly can come into play if someone chooses to go that route (which is perhaps a legitmate point of concern for the mod's when somewhat advanced concepts are posted in an open forum), I would contend that it shouldn't be. I regularly engage in what I call "hyper-speed" drills, where I push my limits of speed, more to speed up my brain than to post "bragging rights times" on any forum. By speeding up my brain, I can also speed up my reactions to instinctively STOP an activity that has been initiated subconsciously as prudently as I can consciously, perhaps moreso because the instinct to STOP is hardwired as opposed to the lag that conscious thought would require. I like to call it my "kill switch" which says I never go so fast and aggressively that God forbid someone's pet, or worse their child ended up downrange when I was running a scenario...I couldn't react appropriately to that circumstance.

Regarding some of the "forum politics", I understand the concerns. We live in a litigous society, and I don't think anyone would argue that telling the police, prosecutor, jury, "I wasn't thinking, I was acting subconsciously" has some inherent risks.

However, I find this statement the most disturbing.

If you fail to see the differences between training the military and police from training Armed Citizens, then I suggest you limit offering your instruction to those groups.

Free Societies have evolved a value system which places Armed Professionals in a different class than Armed Citizens. To the brave men at Lexington & Concord, and those that would eventually lead them by pledging their lives, fortunes, and sacred honor, this is an unfortunate development. I contend they didn't see the nuances the same way as many do today.

I continue to be disturbed that a site that would take for it's motto an ancient phrase which translated literally means "Come & Take Them" (a phrase of righteous indignation and defiance), is becoming more and more "litigation aware". The ownership and administration of this site certainly is well within their rights to carefully scrutinize posted content within their virtual space. However, consumers of this resource need to carefully consider what all this means to them.

The Armed Citizen in my humble opinion should be looking for every opportunity to expand their survival skills. Their lives, and those whom they protect are every bit as important as the Armed Professional. I see the ethical Armed Professional as my brother or sister in arms, not my protector, not my keeper.

I'm grateful that this kind of dialogue can still occur at THR, and I hope that some day the suits from the Trial Lawyer's Association don't succed in stifling it altogether.

Safe Shooting,

CZ52'
 
What does the Wiggle mean?

I'm finally getting the grip and stance right to have the gun recoil and come back down without me having to push, or bring, it back down. But I am noticing that it does this side to side wiggle as it snaps back down. It is more or less straight but wiggles as it settles back into the sight picture.

Any thoughts?
 
First thing to check is your thumb, the weak hand one in particular. Make sure your're not influencing the gun with it. Check your strong hand thumb as well. ALso be aware if your wrists are firm or not. Start there and see what happens.
 
After I switched to a open gun I learned a lot about grip pressure. The red dot teaches you a lot about what your sights really do in recoil. If I had too little grip pressure like what I used to do with a limited gun the dot would do a clover leaf during recoil, especially if I was rolling the trigger at speed. If I applied too much grip pressure I tended to influence the gun by having the dot pull to one side or another during recoil. When I had it just right the dot did a short hop strait up and down. What I'm saying is as long as your mechanics are correct with the thumbs forward and the cocked support wrist. next experiment with your grip pressure. I think with a limited gun we tend to go light on the grip pressure and just let the gun freely recoil. Need a touch more pressure than that, but nowhere near crushing.

I've also found those funky double recoil springs do funny tings at the top of the recoil. If I'm shooting a HK USP I don't even need a dot to tell me that. The front sight does a little figure 8 at the top of the recoil. Thus I've never liked those double recoil spring set ups.
 
Helped beginner

I am doing self taught bullseye and this video helped me with timed/rapid fire more than any other resource. He does a good job of explaining what happens after you fire the first shot, what to do, and what not to do.
I have been using this to string together quintuple taps...which is a term that some might like even less than double taps.
 
Speaking in tongues

Lurper,

Thank you for a very helpful video. It's great to find a place where someone shares my special sickness... :D

I'm kind of pissed there won't be any more videos here. You obviously have a generous spirit and were mentoring in the finest sense of the word, so I am a bit outraged on your behalf that the mods reacted the way they did. On the other hand, it is their site, and they have every right to make that call. I'm just a Johnny come lately here, so what I say doesn't carry much weight, but I think we need you more than you need us.

Given the huge membership here I can see the mod's point of view and need to moderate more strictly. I spend a lot of time on the 6.5 Grendel site and have done a ton of free work promoting that platform, recently for 3-Gun competition as it is an AR-15 that can make Major PF. We don't have many members so we can afford to take a pretty lax mod stance. Perhaps you will accept my invitation to join us there and share what you know with us. The connection between AR-15 shoorters and pistols may not be obvious, but there must be a lot of overlap or the USPSA wouldn't have started 3-Gun. Anyway, I hope you will at least stop by and check us out. I would really like to have a few more of those very helpful videos.

Peace.
 
Thank you Solidpoint. I'd be happy to visit, what is the url for the sight? Also, none of the mods here have said I cannot post any videos. What was asked was that I not post any training videos in the Startegies & Tactics forum. I'm okay with that and it should not be a reflection on the mods. Obviously there is a philosophical difference between myself and one of the mods, but even so, that should not be a negative reflection on him, myself or THR.

I really appreciate your supportive comments. I will post more videos as soon as I get some decent ones made.
 
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