Getting beat up, do you draw?

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This hypothetical situation reminds me why I carry a 2oz Fox Labs OC can with the Walther. Even if you are justified in putting a few rounds into the guy that's sworn to beat you to a pulp, how is that going to look to a jury afterwards? He was unarmed. When the cops show up they find a body and you holding a smoking gun - won't go well.

Give him the Visine treatment with OC. At the very least it might buy you some time to get away and make it easier for the cops to pick him up later. And if he isn't affected by the OC and comes after you anyway - you have a much stronger legal defense if you have to draw and fire. You've made every (verifiable) effort to get away without the loss of life. That is the high road.
 
the legal part went so far as to give an example of being punched in the nose and it being broken had been ruled in case law as *not* sufficient cause to draw a weapon and shoot an assailant.

Unfortunately, like a lot of such antecdotes it doesn't tell us anything useful. The context of the punch is critical. There is no general rule saying you can't shoot when someone breaks your nose, but you can if they break your leg.
 
*If I see a gun, knife, club etc... I will shoot no questions.
*If a person is unarmed I will OC them severely.
I have no reason to want to self inflict a manslaughter or even murder charge upon myself. OC it the right tool for the unarmed BG.
 
I take it to mean by the "Nike defense" you mean get out of the area, not necessarily at a dead run?

Yes it just means disengage. Run if you have to, but just disengage. You have to swallow a lot of your pride when dealing with rude and loutish behavior when you are armed. The fact that you are armed turns every confrontation you are involved in into an armed confrontation. It's often better to let the loud mouthed drunk think you shrank from his bold attack on your man hood then to escalate the situation to the point you had to shoot him. Loudly apologize and announce you are leaving, even if the assailant doesn't deserve an apology. It's going to be cheaper then defending your actions in court.

Jeff
 
readbearde said:
in my TN concealed carry class, the legal part went so far as to give an example of being punched in the nose and it being broken had been ruled in case law as *not* sufficient cause to draw a weapon and shoot an assailant.

Yep. Same in MN. 609.02 says that broken bones is "substantial bodily harm" and you cannot use deadly force. :fire:

I agree with Jeff's comments and those that said not to turn your back on someone. If someone blocks your exit, draw. If you draw and they continue forward, it is my opinion that a reasonable person should conclude that the bad guy believes he has the ability to disarm you and use your firearm against you. At this point it becomes a shoot.
 
You wait for them to start laying into you with their fists and feet.

Remember the old adage, "sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never hurt me". That'll keep you out of more trouble than you think.
 
I would think the circumstances that led up to the broken nose had more merit to the case than the act itself. I can see the use of deadly force in an attack no matter what is or is not broken. An attack is just that an attack. No one can predict the outcome. IT IS THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LEADS UP TO THE ATTACK that will be scrutinized. Avoidance is the best advise in any SD issue. If you can prove you did all you could do to avoid the attack you will be recognized as the victim and as long as your responce is measured with restraint its very doubtful you will be held liable in defending yourself.

Jim
 
It's never a good idea to go hand to hand while you are armed. When you make the decision to carry a firearm or other deadly weapon, you must also make the decision to forever give up brawling and other activities. If you're the kind of person who is going to go into attack mode when the sloppy drunk gets mouthy and punch him in the nose, you probably shouldn't be carrying a gun. If you feel that you are less of a man if you walk away from trouble, you probably shouldn't be carrying. People get themselves in enough trouble with those attitudes when they are unarmed. Engaging in mutual combat while armed will probably guarantee felony charges. Remember there is at least one weapon present in every disagreement you get into while you are armed..the one YOU brought.

Couldn't have said it any better. I know a few "tough guys" that are smart enough to not get a permit for just that reason - they get into brawls over the slightest provocation.

My interpretation is that in NC we are supposed to wait until we are within an inch of lives before we draw. We also can't use deadly force once someone is already in your home. We can only use it while they are in the process of breaking in and even then they have to have felonious intent. Yeah, little odd to me too.

Your interpretations are correct. NC has some of the screwiest SD laws in the nation. The thing about a break-in is exactly the opposite of most states. That's the one thing I don't like about NC, you basically have to be already dead to fight back. This is a state that is in desperate need of a Castle Doctrine.

I was told be our CCW instructor that a fist fight is considered a simple assault in NC, so you cannot even draw. He stated that you really cannot draw until you are about to black out. :fire:

Ridiculous.
 
Well, I feel that my life has been threatened, so it's 'Say hello to my little friend' time. He can back off or not - his fate is now in his hands.

I'm old, but clean up real good for court. And, yes, I do know the laws here.
 
I'm glad I live in the great state of Florida. No longer have to retreat if a situation as above stated happens.

I can't run very good any more. But I would try to walk away from any problems prior to even a verbal engagement with folks nowadays.

Seen to many bad things happen to people during my career. Just my 2 cents worth.
 
But what if the other guy can run faster than you? I dunno about you all, but I'm not very good at drawing my gun while being tackled at a dead run (not that I've actually tried it).

Out in the woods, when confronted by a big mean hairy critter, you can often get away by backing away slowly. If you run, you die.

I don't think I want to turn my back on someone who just threatened to hurt me.

It's not about honor or anything - it's about survival.
Exactly. What you will be doing is triggering a fight-or-flight response in yourself and the person in question. If you're flighting, you can pretty much guess how the other guy will naturally respond. It also proves to him that you lost control of the situation and that he alone is in control. I instead would try to de-escalate and calmly walk away. Key word being calm.
 
If you're flighting, you can pretty much guess how the other guy will naturally respond. It also proves to him that you lost control of the situation and that he alone is in control. I instead would try to de-escalate and calmly walk away. Key word being calm.

Exactly. That's how I plan to handle such a situation ... hopefully I'll never have to.
 
I was told by a detective a long time ago...
"you can't hit anyone back unless you're in immediate danger of your life. You can't hit him back unless he's on top of you and has you pinned and beating you."

Then they charged me with battery. If you think that you're gonna get away with shooting someone who's threatening you then you're wrong. I'd be surprised if the guy was beating you to a pulp and you shot him if you wouldn't see some legal troubles.

Remember, most inmates would rather be ANYWHERE but prison. I don't want to risk murder charges so I follow this mantra:

Don't draw unless you intend to fire.
Don't fire unless you intend to kill.
Don't kill unless you intend to live.
 
IIRC, the Texas case was in Houston, and two work trucks smacked their side mirrors. One guy gets out and tells other guy not to report it, as he'd lose his job. The seated guy (CHL holder) said that he intended to report it, and the attack began.

The attacker, as I recall, was of South Pacific origins (Samoa?) and a very, very big guy. He was literally beating the CHL holder to death when the shot was fired. The victim still has permanent damage, in one eye, IIRC, but he survived and his attacker did not.

I've thought many times that he should have told the guy: "Sure, OK, no problem. Let's just forget about it." ... and then reported it. I can imagine such a situation after a minor accident with an uninsured driver who is agitated and strongly insists that no one can be called. If I thought that an attack would ensue if I insisted on reporting it, I might play ball, but then I'd be on the phone with the cops and my insurance company as soon as their taillights disappeared from view.

All my best,
Dirty Bob
 
Personally i have never picked a fight. I am very well mannered and courteous and sometimes quiet/soft spoken. I have had plenty of fights picked with me, I was usually unarmed and tried to turn them down if it was possible. Unarmed because of being in a bar or club by choice, or being dropped from port to port and being set loose in foreign lands without being able to carry courtesy of the USN. Good times, Good times. Anyway I'm older now(31) and a bit damaged(3 ruptured disks in back, DDD, Sciatica) these conditions keep me from moving very fast and since I carry all the time i often think about the situation you posted. Plus with carting a wife and two young girls around I definately will have a hard time fleeing.

Attention: If you do not accept my apology(often undeserved) and obey my clearly annunciated verbal warnings to back off and keep back, it may be taken as an act of aggression. I will not wait till you are chewing on my kids to react. Oh wait, this was about people, right?

I have always felt strongly in the words, "Speak softly and carry a big stick" I will always try to de-escalate but I will only be pushed so far. And depending on the circumstances a decision will be made.

Excersize your free will, and deal with the consequences. now I will go back and read what all you other THRoaders are suggesting. i'll probably learn something.
 
Jeff White is 100% correct.

Disengage at (almost) any cost.

The upside of resolving the conflict without involving use of your pistol:

1. You get to keep your gun,

2. You don't have to make bail,

3. You don't have to write a check to a criminal defense atty,

4. You get to keep your CC permit,

5. You don't have to deal with killing someone in addition to defending yourself against the inevitable civil suit. How many times do you really want to see the inside of a courtroom over the next few years?

If it's not a clear-cut case of absolutely no other choice but to employ your firearm, remove yourself if at all possible.

Don't worry yourself about the opinion of your manhood on the part of some psycho as you retreat...take satisfaction in knowing that you're the one who just saved his life.

Also, if you're going to carry a weapon, it is imperative that you know FOR SURE what the applicable use of force laws are in any/every jurisdiction that you carry in. It's a lot easier to study the subject now than it is to get your lesson from a judge and jury later. Don't rely on "internet lawyers", actually read the laws that pertain and ask questions of either a real criminal atty OR your local city/county atty. Many criminal atty's will give a free first consultation.
 
I agree with Jeff White. That is probably what I would do if I was ever in that situation.
 
My take on deployment:

JT1 said:
Whatever the situation, deploying a gun is of course the last option. For myself, I have trained to the point where if I deploy my gun I am going to shoot. Period. I will not display as a deterrent. If it works as a deterrent and I can safely disengage from the situation then that is good but that will not be my mindset when I deploy. The only exception to this is if I am in a situation where I feel a threat and I can deploy unobserved and be ready if needed. I feel that that if you can maintain this level of discpline you will not even consider using deadly force unless you feel 100% justified.
 
Carry a GOOD pepper spray (something like a Fox Labs fogger) and spray him while backing away, if at all possible. Create distance.
 
The Texas case being mentioned here is interesting in that it was the first time a CHL holder used their gun while carrying. It happened in Dallas on Mockingbird Lane on Feb. 21, 1996, and the involved parties were Gordon Hale 3d (CHL) and Kenny Tavai. They bumped mirrors, and Tavai got out of his vehicle and started hitting Hale through the window. Hale defended himself with a single shot to Tavai's chest, which killed Tavai. Hale was charged with murder, but the grand jury declined to indict him.
Of the concealed-carry licensees who have been arrested for a murder, several have been no-billed by grand juries that determined the killings were lawful. Gordon Hale III was the first Texas licensee to kill an assailant using his concealed firearm-and the first licensee arrested.

Hale had been involved in a minor noninjury traffic accident that turned into an assault when the other driver, Kenny Tavai, punched Hale repeatedly in the face and then attempted to drag him out of his car through the window. Hale fired his weapon in response, killing Tavai. The Dallas district attorney's office charged Hale with murder for using what it considered excessive force in defending against Tavai. The grand jury believed that Hale justifiably feared for his life and refused to indict him.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3827/is_200006/ai_n8916024
 
This from a "Stand Your Ground" State:

Tucson man gets 2.5 years in parking lot shooting

During his trial last month, Midcap told jurors he shot Popin after Popin shoved him to the ground in the parking lot of their apartment complex near East Speedway and North Alvernon Way. Popin retrieved something from his truck after the shove, and Midcap testified he thought it was a gun.

The jury convicted Midcap of pointing a gun at a friend of Popin's after the shooting, but split 10-2 in favor of guilty on the murder count. A mistrial was declared, and Midcap pleaded guilty several days later to negligent homicide.

Judge John Leonardo of Pima County Superior Court sentenced Midcap to 2 1/2 years for shooting Popin and a concurrent 2 1/4 years for pointing the gun at Popin's friend.

Midcap and Popin had several confrontations over the month leading up to the shooting, mostly over noise from Popin and some friends working on a truck and smoking methamphetamine in the parking lot between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m.

Leonardo also ordered Midcap, who suffers from congestive heart failure, cerebral palsy and a host of other ailments, to pay nearly $5,000 in restitution.

Hindsight is easy, but it might have been smarter not to confront crankheads in a parking lot in the middle of the night even if you had a right to be there.
 
Even in "liberal" Seattle

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...hooting07.html

This story is obviously a bit biased. Later reports indicate that the guy who shot took quite a beating before he drew and fired.

Again it gets back to believing that your life is in danger.
Several nearby Seattle police officers heard the gunshot. When they arrived at the shooting scene, the victim, sitting on a streetside planter full of purple pansies, handed the gun to them and said, "I am the one who did this," according to Assistant Police Chief Jim Pugel
:rolleyes:

cute journalism!;)
 
A new word for you to learn: ADEE.

Avoid
De-escalate/Disengage
Escape
Evade

The full lecture notes can be found at http://www.teddytactical.com/archive/MonthlyStudy/2006/02_StudyDay.htm , listening to Skip's lecture/Powerpoint presentation (at last year's Glock Summit in Titusville, FL) was two of the best hours I ever spent in a classroom.

I'd also suggest you take any chance you get to attend the ECQC course from Southnarc ( http://www.shivworks.com/pdf/ECQC Course overview .pdf ). You need to have more tools in your toolbox than just a concealed firearm, a class like this can help give them to you. S'narc will be teaching in Atlanta in a couple of weeks, don't know his schedule otherwise but he is definitely worth your while for learning the 0-3' stuff, including gunfighting at that range if it comes down to it. See the thread at http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=277882 for more info on the ATL classes.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
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