"Can I look in the vehicle?" wife & kids present

no pc needed

Just a nit; the officer doesn't need probable cause for initiating a road side search, they need the much lower standard of reasonable suspicion that a crime has taken place, is taking place or about to take place. All the refusal in the world won't end things until you have expressed a desire to be on your lawful way. IOW, you need to fully understand if you are in custody, or free to leave. Along the lines of answering with "no, AM I FREE TO GO?"

You'll know if you're not, they'll tell you. More than likely they'll try to stall answering you yes or no, by immediately diverting the conversation or the ubiquitous "sit tight". What exactly does that mean? You're either in custody or your not. If you're in custody, previous posters have pretty well covered it. If you're free to leave, politely bid farewell and be on your way.

This is why I liked my Crown Victoria; it had one of those little keypad things on the driver's door for keyless entry. My standard operating procedure for a cop asking to search the vehicle was to say "No," then if he ordered me out of the car, I'd leave the keys in the ignition and lock all the doors and step out.

Cop can't force me to give him my keyless entry code, he'd have to bust my window in to get into the car. And if he does that, small claims suit following would certainly pay for the new window. And the cop would have a black mark on his record for making the department pay for a civilian's window.

Yeah, that's where it starts to get counter productive for me - wife and kids, remember?

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If you're more concerned about convenience than your rights, what are you asking us for? If a police officer asks to search your car, and you don't want to make the wife/kids "uncomfortable", then by all means consent.

But if you care more about your rights and principles, then respectfully refuse, and if that means your wife and kids get to step out of the car... so be it.

It's your choice, not ours.

Do you ever drive your kids friends home?
How about a coworker or a neighbor?
Ever take your car to a garage to be fixed did the mechanic drive it?

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Sorry to say but Meathook's got it right in my book and the reason I think so is the situation a former co-worker told me about.

His car needed some electrical work done (headlights kept flickering). Mechanics had it for almost a week but when he got it back with everything worked great so he was happy. He said the only funny thing he noticed at first was that the trip meter said 820 miles and he was SURE that he'd reset it before he left the car at the garage.

So he didn't think much more about it until about a week later when he took the car to the carwash. There he was vacuuming it out and he found a small plastic wrapped packet wedged in the side of the trunk with some weed in it. So he called up the garage in a fine fury to find out the mechanic who worked on his car had just been arrested in NY. Apparently said mechanic was was "borrowing" customer's cars on the weekends and using them to run weed from NYC down to VA!

I tell everyone I know to say this if a cops asks to search:

"No, I don't consent to a search"

If the officers asks why, then:

"A lawyer told me to never consent to a search."

Do you ever drive your kids friends home?
How about a coworker or a neighbor?
Ever take your car to a garage to be fixed did the mechanic drive it?

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Years ago my car was almost totalled, so to get around my girlfriend let me borrow her car.

I drove it for three weeks, and before I gave it back to her I decided to vacuum it out. Right underneath the passenger seat was a bag of marijuana that she didn't even know was there. It turns out her pothead cousin had left the weed under the seat for some reason, and must have forgot about it.

"no sir, not at this time."

A little personal experience here - on multiple occasions... why me?

The trick I've found is that you should never answer any questions. If the cops have cause to do whatever they please, they wouldn't be asking questions - they'll just be doing. So if they have to ask questions, you have leverage on your side.

Second, though, playing mum or being wise-ass is just gonna make things worse. The trick is to reverse every question. Eventually, the cop gets bored, frustrated, etc. and let you go. But since the whole time you weren't acting like you had something to hide, there is no stretch of imagination to invent probable cause.

"licence and registration"
"yes officer" (OK these two things you must procure)
"Can I search your vehicle?"
"Why do you want to search my vehicle?"
"I have reason to believe that you were smoking marijuana."
"Why do you believe that we were smoking marijuana?"
(pause...) "Can I take a look at your ashtray?"
"Why do you want to take a look at my ashtray?"
"Look if you have nothing to hide, then you'll let me confirm that by letting me look at your ashtray."
"Why would you think that I have something to hide?"
"Because you're refusing to let me just take a look at your vehicle."
"Why would you think that I'm refusing you?"
"Then let me search your car! (a little aggrevated now)"
"Why do you want to search my car?"
(long pause)
"Do you know how fast you were driving?"
"How fast was I driving?"
(another pause)
"Where are you headed?"
"Why do you need to know where I'm headed?"
"Um.. the weather is real bad tonight. You boys shouldn't be on the highway this late."
"Why shouldn't we be on the highway?"
"Are you from around here?"
"Are you?"
"Boy, are you giving me attitude?"
"Sir, does my demeanor sound like I'm giving you attitude?"
(real long pause)
"You boys stay on the right lane and watch out for slippery spots."

For the record, we were smoking cigarettes and staying well below the speed limit (because of the weather).

"they why didn't you just let The Man take a look at your ashtray?"

Because it starts with the ashtray. Then under the seats. Then inside the trunk. Give an inch, lose a mile. Besides, it was freaking cold and storming outside. You're welcome to huddle outside your car while John Q. searches for that imaginary needle in an imaginary stack of imaginary hay.

Never volunteer information. You just signed up for a Terry frisk...

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wrong again. You don't even have to answer the officers questions if you don't want to.

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Beg to differ. A Terry frisk requires reasonable suspicion that you are armed. Telling the man you have a gun certainly substantiates reasonable suspicion. Keeping your mouth shut, there is at least the possibility of contesting the reasonableness of his suspicion.

Under a Terry frisk, if you are in a vehicle, the U.S Supreme court has decided that an LEO can frisk your person for weapons, the court also said that the officer may "frisk" the vehicle.

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Please expand. My understanding is that you can lock the vehicle behind you, and he can't force you to open it. He can peer in the windows all he likes, but he can't search the vehicle. Having removed you from it and frisked you, you no longer pose a danger to the officer, which is the purpose of a Terry frisk.

If the officer develops (or believes he developed) probable cause, he can confiscate your keys, or forcibly enter your vehicle to search.

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You must continue to refuse consent, or else "probable cause" is completely moot. If you withhold consent, you have grounds to argue the exclusion of any evidence found in the search.

The officer will of course say that you dropped a bag of weed on the ground when you took your hankie out of your pocket, and the judge will probably ignore your protest that you don't own a hankie--but that's a whole 'nother issue for a whole 'nother thread.

"no sir, not at this time."

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If the cop loves comedians, he'll go to a night club. A confrontation with the law is not the time to be a smartass.

--Len.

ATTENTION

This thread seems to be missing something....the question about weapons. If you refuse to allow your care to be searched, but then are asked if there are any weapons, what would you say? You cannot lie, because if they end up searching your car you are in 10x as much trouble, but if you say yes there is in the trunk, what then? May they search your trunk? What about the rest of the car?

That is what I took out of the original post, not so much can you say no to a search.

I wish it were so

Say no to a cop and you will find yourself with some trumped up charges real fast IMO. In this situation they have absolute power and can destroy your life however they want. Remember the movie crash? As a teen driving a cheap car in a rich neighborhood, I was subjected to whatever they felt like at any time "there is a wire hanging underneath your car" and whatever humilitation their mood dictated. Just lucky to get away without injury or false arrest.

Your ideas of having rights are just ideas at the moment when you are out alone on a roadside with no one to witness.

I am glad that we have monsters to fight the monsters but I have never had anything but BAD come from asserting my rights and do not think doing so makes any impression on the police. If you kiss ass they might forget to damage you or humiliate you in front of your wife, maybe.

If he has PC, he doesn't need your permission. So don't give it. If he has to ask, the answer is no.

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YES!!! Henry NAILED it! Very good observation. HIGH FIVE!

This thread seems to be missing something....the question about weapons.

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Like I said, if the cop has to ask, then the cop knows that he/she is not in a position to take freely. So don't give anything voluntarily. However, saying a bunch of "No, officer"'s or wisecracks is gonna get you in deeper poop, because it verges on defiance. Just reverse the question.

"Why do you think there are weapons on myself or in my car?"

"Why do you think I'm posing a threat?"

"Why do I need to step out of my vehicle?"

Outlaws,
I already answered your question. Say nothing.

Say nothing.

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Mum Mum Mum.

"If you have nothing to hide, then why don't you just...."

which of course, paves the way for some probable cause.

"Am I free to go?"

PC needed

Mmmm, yeah, po-po do need probable cause to search your car; it is a warrant that they do not need. Smurf, maybe you are thinking of a frisk once they get you out of the car under Wilson.

To answer the questions of the original poster:

1. Most appropriate response to "can I search the car?"=>"No. Am I free to leave?"

2. Are there any weapons in the car? "Am I free to leave?"

I've heard horror stories of people allowing a search and ending up on the side of the road with a car completely disassembled, damaged, and the cops saying "We didnt' find anything. See ya later." Seats cut open, door panels ripped off, carpet pulled up, etc.

Outlaws,
I already answered your question. Say nothing.

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What about a CCW holder? In AZ you have to answer honestly if asked, and silence is not acceptable as far as I know. That means that a weapon that is in the car also as far as I know....especially if it is in a concealed spot in the car not in line with the glove box, trunk, or plain sight. So have you given up your right to a search if the cop doesn't want you to retrieve it yourself? If he says, "I'll get it" can you say, "uh, no, I will or you just don't get to see it without a warrant?"

What about a CCW holder? In AZ you have to answer honestly if asked, and silence is not acceptable as far as I know.

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"As far as I know" is not an acceptable answer.. You'd better know if you have a CCW

"I'll get it" can you say, "uh, no, I will or you just don't get to see it without a warrant?"

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Put the decision on him, but make it sound friendly and to his advantage to not inspect/unholster your weapon.

"I'd prefer not to let onlookers know that I carry-not to mention the firearm is safer in the holster... is there any other way I can [insert phrase of choice]?"

I dunno..there's a certain enjoyment being able to redirect those whose job it is to redirect.

Well, my standard is basically "My sister, who serves as our family attorney, says that I'm never supposed to waive any rights. So, sir, I suggest that you get a warrant, but it'll be a waste of time, because there's nothing illegal or being illegally transported in this vehicle."

I used to have a large foam Viagra pill, in case I was asked about drugs...

Oh, yeah...you've been caught with a tailight out and are breaking no other laws with a clean criminal record and your family is in the car.

Well, not to hijack but let me ask a slightly different question. What if a cop gets so physically out of line that you wind up defending yourself by stomping his or her ass so to the point he or she is no longer able to continue to be a threat?

I'm not talking about he's been mean or nasty or touches your arm. This cop has your frickin arm behind your back trying to break it. Oh, and it's all on the offending officer's car camera.

What if? What would be the outcome in court, if you live that long once his buddies arrive?

These threads creep me out because I can just imagine police and attorneys cringing with every sentence they read. I can't imagine half the advice in them is any good.

"Everyone out of the car."

"OK."

(roll windows up, lock doors, get out of car)

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If I'm sitting in the car with an officer at the window and am asked to get out of car and I reach for the keys so i can turn the ignition on and roll up the windows I just can't imagine things taking a turn for the worse.

This is why I liked my Crown Victoria; it had one of those little keypad things on the driver's door for keyless entry. My standard operating procedure for a cop asking to search the vehicle was to say "No," then if he ordered me out of the car, I'd leave the keys in the ignition and lock all the doors and step out.

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So do you get out of the car to talk to the cop? Do you roll up the windows before getting out?


I say refuse the search and teach the kids a lesson. But really is this a big problem for most of you guys? I drive an old car, I've been pulled over with long hair looking grungy and speeding....I've never had any officer ever ask. I'm sure it happens when it shouldnt but I think it might be something people worry too much about.

Sure it is far fetched, and sure you and your kids don't hang out with "those" kind of people. BUT do you want to take that chance?

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not that far-fetched. in fact, this very thing happened to my brother back when he was in high school, long enough ago that the statute of limitations has to have run out by now...

he was driving his own car with three friends in the vehicle. friend #1 reaches down and finds a plastic baggy with a white substance inside it, says "hey, what's this?" my brother, confused and beginning to get upset, says something like "uh...beats me..." friend #3 speaks up from the back seat and says "oh man! that's mine. i lost it the other day." as you've probably already guessed, it was cocaine.

you'd have to know my brother to understand just how upset he got about this. he has never even smoked a single cigarette, has probably had alcohol less than half a dozen times, and has definitely never done any illegal drugs. on the baseball team in high school he was the only player that didn't take up snuff [or chew, or whatever the hell it's called...]. he was pissed. but he was also extremely fortunate that friend #1 found it before the next time he had a traffic stop. he got off with just a lesson about choosing friends. could have been a lot worse...

had he been asked about a vehicle search, he is exactly the type who would've figured "sure, i've got nothing to hide."

...bad idea.

If I'm sitting in the car with an officer at the window and am asked to get out of car and I reach for the keys so i can turn the ignition on and roll up the windows I just can't imagine things taking a turn for the worse.

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Why would you have to turn on the ignition? There is an "accessory" feature on ever car made in at least the last 50 years. When you are pulled over, turn off the car and leave it on that. The windows will work. If asked to exit the vehicle, open the door, roll up the windows, and remove the keys. Simple.

"As far as I know" is not an acceptable answer.. You'd better know if you have a CCW

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Why the hell did I ask then? It is a situation I, and probably more than a few others, hadn't thought about. No one knows everything, despite some thinking they do.