Does an oppressive society paint people into violent corners

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leadcounsel

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I've often wondered whether the oppressive nature of our society, or at least the direction in which it has been and continues to move, paints people into corners where they feel their only answer is to lash out with violence.

Let's take the tax code as one of a myriad of examples of how complicated it has become just to survive. Most of America is just not able to comprehend the tax code without hiring a professional. Each year you have to reinvent the wheel just to do your taxes. Now, multiply that by daily transactions of increasing complexity (court and legal system, business regulations, firearm laws, etc.) and it's easy to see why people get sooo frustrated. While I'm not justifying why people snap, I can absolutely see the WHY of it. We have built this system where representatives want to justify their high paying and powerful jobs by creating laws where no laws are necessary. In my opinion, this will likely be one of the causes for the downfall of our nation. -- Overregulation to the point of paralysis.
 
While you really can't take individual responsibility out of the picture, the overly burdensome and increasingly oppressive tax code and other regulations that are being shoved down our throats are making it harder for some people to cope.
Last night on The O'Reilly Factor Bill interviewed a Nevada resident who survived the horrid wildfires that are burning houses down right and left. His house largely survived. Why? He cleared out brush, pine needles, and dried scrub out to about 75-100 feet from his house. THE LAW permits residents to clear it only out to 30 feet from the house. So, he broke the law ... but in doing so, he saved his home. All the others around him apparantly obeyed the law -- or possibly didn't do any clearing. According to one resident interviewed on another news show, you can't even clear DEAD trees.

This is what our government is coming to....on a lot of levels.
 
I recently rewatched Brazil a little while ago.
If you haven't seen it, check it out - it's pretty much exactly what you're describing.
 
But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism

Are we there yet?
Is it time for this yet?

it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Jefferson
 
No, I am not known for my moderation on certain subjects so I look to the community for a baseline. That is really how society is supposed to work. I ask the question because, to me, it is long past time but again I may just be going off half-cocked.
BTW those quotes are from the Declaration of Independence, sorry I forgot to attribute them properly earlier.

Jefferson
 
Repressive? Anybody who thinks the US is repressive hasn't lived in other countries, or travelled for lengthy periods in other countries.

And compared to when I was a kid, yeah, the US has become far more repressive--yet it doesn't hold a candle to the other "advanced" countries.

For an idea of how trivial things can be: In Germany, you can't change to a larger-sized tire on your car or motorcycle, but by one size. (Example, from a 175 to a 185, but no 195s or larger)

Repressive? 'Scuse me, how about gun laws in other countries?

In Canada, if you say something that's highly embarrassing to another person, it is no defense in court against libel that what you said was true. (A trial in British Columbia, IIRC, about five or six years ago.)

Please realize I'm in full accord with those who say we have bad laws and stupid laws, but we're still way better off than most places. Trouble is, liberty-lovers are too busy working for a living to have time to put in the necessary hours of politicking to stay free...

Art
 
Art is right, the US isn't perfect but it is the best. But that doesn't mean that we shouldn't push for change. I'd like to see a new committee in Congress whose sole purpose is to research laws and recommend for repealing those laws which serve no good purpose. Yes I know I live in a fantasy land.
 
leadcounsel,

Ayn Rand recognized the point you're making and said it very well in her novel, Atlas Shrugged. If the following excerpt resonates with anyone here and you're not familiar with Ayn Rand's work, you might want to check it out sometime.

"Says the bureaucrat Floyd Ferris: "You honest men are such a problem and such a headache. But we knew you'd slip sooner or later . . . [and break one of our regulations] . . . this is just what we wanted."
Rearden: "You seem to be pleased about it."

Bureaucrat Ferris: "Don't I have good reason to be?"

Rearden: "But, after all, I did break one of your laws."

Bureaucrat Ferris: "Well, what do you think they're there for?"

Continues bureaucrat Ferris: "Did you really think that we want those laws to be observed? We want them broken. You'd better get it straight that it's not a bunch of boy scouts you're up against . . . We're after power and we mean it. You fellows were pikers, but we know the real trick, and you'd better get wise to it. There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals. Well, when there aren't enough criminals, one makes them. One declares so many things to be a crime that it becomes impossible for men to live without breaking laws. Who wants a nation of law-abiding citizens? What's there in that for anyone? But just pass the kind of laws that can neither be observed nor enforced nor objectively interpreted [Frederick Mann: Obfuscation of meaning is a key element of the con games bureaucrats and politicians play.] - and you create a nation of law-breakers - and then you cash in on guilt. Now that's the system, Mr. Rearden, and once you understand it, you'll be much easier to deal with." [emphasis added]"

K
 
Kentak: I find it telling that you had to weed out the good content from the chaff in Rand's turgid writing. She hits the reader over the head with her mind numbingly poor writing until she accidentally writes down a couple of decent phrases, like the ones you highlighted. ;)
 
Something to consider.

What is State/Local/Fed Gov't really interested in?

1. Law Enforcement

2. Crime Reduction/Prevention

I think we can safely say that People/Citizens are most interested in Crime Reduction/Prevention so that they can live in peace/exercise liberty/freedom that this country is known for.

Gov't on the other hand seems to be most interested in Law Enforcement and Revenue Generation.

Politicians on the other hand are only interested in saving their own skins and getting re-elected...there are exceptions to this rule and there truly are some good politicians out there (REAL Leaders) but as a whole they are self serving weasels that have no interest/incentive in reducing the complexity/burden/size of Govt only increasing it.

Life/Gov't/Politics are a pendulum that swings back and forth...based on recent polls for our Federal Officials I believe that people overwhelmingly agree that the pendulum isn't where they want it to be and I suspect that in the 2008 election there will be a backlash against the status quo/incumbants that makes 2006 look like a warmup.

To answer the question posed in the original post I believe that the complexity and size of gov't etc contributes unnecessarily to paint folks into a corner....imho we need to advocate less complicated/burdensome gov't that serves the people better.
 
jpk, it's unfortunate but true that government attracts those who most want to "do good" or who are control freaks and want power. The do-gooders don't see their intents as being repressive. The control-freaks, as near as I can tell, don't care about repression so much as some sort of maintenance of a "proper order".

Our Constitution is a mindset, really: Small government which acts within its limits is the least repressive--which is defined as "good"..

Art
 
I don't think comparing the U.S to other countries to determine the level of repression is a respectable form of measure. I tend to measure things that are related and directly affect the U.S- Perhaps, you've heard of it, The Constitution of the United States of America?

Slapping my face to make me forget the pain of stubbing my toe is nothing more than a weak attempt to trick me into feeling better about our current situation.
 
I think comparing country to country is an excellent form of measure.

Are you really THAT BOTHERED by stubbing your toe? Just curious.

John
 
Saying, "Well, other people have it worse, so how dare you complain!" isn't a valid rebuttal to the basic argument.

The fact that my chains are lighter than those of another doesn't mean I'm really free and I'm just complaining too much. I'm still chained.
 
Let's take the tax code as one of a myriad of examples of how complicated it has become just to survive. Most of America is just not able to comprehend the tax code without hiring a professional. Each year you have to reinvent the wheel just to do your taxes.


I'd be willing to bet that violence from 'snapping' and suicides go up around good 'ol April 17.


Please realize I'm in full accord with those who say we have bad laws and stupid laws, but we're still way better off than most places.

+1. The US is pretty bad, but it's still the best place there is.
 
Repressive? Anybody who thinks the US is repressive hasn't lived in other countries

Other countries? Would you be speaking of Iraq, perhaps? Or any of a number of countries in South and Central America where we instigated coups and propped up ruthless and wicked regimes? Iran? Or are you referring to the way the US has pressured other governments to pass and enforce (for example) ridiculously strict patent or copyright laws in order to ensure Disney and Microsoft maintain high profit margins?

Mr. Eatman, I'd argue that you're looking at things the wrong way. The US is both oppressive and repressive... the US government doesn't follow it's own laws domestically, and it uses strong-arm tactics to interfere with the politics and laws of other nations.
 
Repressive? Anybody who thinks the US is repressive hasn't lived in other countries, or travelled for lengthy periods in other countries.

I don't disagree.

I preferer Boston T Party's phrasing better however, its like saying the US is the healthiest patient in the cancer ward. (apologies for the paraphrase)
 
Repressive? Anybody who thinks the US is repressive hasn't lived in other countries, or travelled for lengthy periods in other countries.
So we shouldn't complain about an oppressive government because other governments are worse? What do other countries have to do with this? I don't care how we compare with the rest of the world, bad government is bad government.
 
My great uncle had a good ole country saying that I think fits here.

If you kick a dog long enough 1 of 2 things is going to happen, it will either get up and run off (kinda hard in a repressive country) or turn around and bite you!

Oppressive societies do paint people into violent corners! The more pressure applied to an individual the greater the likelyhood that they will snap. Some people just lose it, others break bad and fight!
 
I don't know about the oppressive part, but lack of employment is related to the rising crime rate. Reading some of the local police reports seem to affirm the crime increase and no jobs.
 
I have read Atlas Shrugged. Rand was very insightful about human nature. Interesting how some of her observations are true in our capitalistic and democratic society today, and causing our downfall.

I don't think that governments truly want to reduce crime. If that were the case they would wipe most crimes off the books. Instead they want to increase crime and punishment to justify their power and existence...
 
When people feel hounded at every turn, they are oppressed. Oppression does clearly breed violence, if left to continue.

There are a couple of folks here who think we are more free in America than people elsewhere. People elsewhere, who have been here, often disagree--and for very valid reasons.

Traveling abroad, don't forget, makes you a foreigner, and foreigners, by and large, are treated to more control and requirements than locals.

I HAVE traveled abroad, extensively, and the U.S. is headed quickly in all the bad directions and few of the good ones. We have laws based in insipid conceptions of morality and "temperance" that few others have.

...and frankly, I agree with others who have pointed up that whatever another country does is irrelevant to us. This country was built on the idea that government exists for one purpose: protection of the rights of the people. It is renegade to that function, and is as quickly as possible turning us into subjects, rather than citizens.

2012 is coming, folks. I snoozed through Y2k, but I see trends and cycles that tell me that 2012 is going to be something. Probably a couple years' buildup as cycles and trends start coming due in 2010. And among those trends are growing animosity about government and other meddlesomeness.

Frankly, it scares the hell out of me. I'm trying to figure which rock to duck under, myself.
 
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