Bolt or AR, which has better accuracy with .308?

Bolt action will always be more accurate than an autoloader, because there are no moving/reciprocating parts (neglecting the firing pin) in motion while the gun is being fired in a bolt gun.

If everything is equal, then yes, the bolt action will be more accurate. Less slop in chamber for function. No movement due to having a moving action. And other reasons.


One thing to keep in mind is intended use. If your goal is to be able to hit a human torso at 400m, then an accurate autoloader will do that just fine, all day long. A sub-moa bolt action will provide you with absolutely no advantage when you are satisfied with hitting within that size of a target. If anything, with the bolt action, you will sacrifice rapid fire and fast followups as compared to an autoloader.

If the objective is to hit something like a torso at a long range (1,000m), or something very small, like a human hand at 250m, and do so with a high degree of confidence, then the bolt action is the choice - since the autoloader will not likely be accurate enough.


What is the size of the target you need to hit, and at what range? That will decide what's best for you without having to decide for yourself.

...assume this is for competition in prone, slow-fire matches for ranges between 200 and 1000 yards.

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plevniak,

Go to any local 1,000 yard F Class match, and see what is being used. Bolt guns dominate this game, and for good reason.

Don

Don't down play the autoloader. While not as accurate as the bolt gun, in many situations it is good enough. If F class had short time limits you see autoaders. The gun is matched to the game. And you can build an AR that will shoot 1/4 MOA, which puts it in line with many high end bolt guns.

If good accuracy with a fast follow up shot is a requirement, go with an autoloader. If accuracy above everything else is the requirement, stick with a bolt gun.

For slowfire, get the bolt gun.
I HAVE an AR reworked for F-class and under ideal conditions it will group as well as my upgraded Savage. Maybe better.
But I can score higher with the bolt action. Stock style and fit, heavier weight, and lighter trigger pull make it a more manageable rifle. And it doesn't throw my matched brass around.

If you need a repeater, get the auto. Rapid fire with a bolt action is a real art and the guys who do it are impressive. But there is little need to learn it from scratch any more.

you can build an AR that will shoot 1/4 MOA, which puts it in line with many high end bolt guns.

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Tod,

Maybe .25MOA at 100 yards, but that doesn't translate to .25MOA at 1,000 yards. In the T/R division of F Class, shooters are restricted to either the .308 or .223 cartridge; I have yet to see a shooter come to the line with a .223. However, this past year at one of the matches, I was teamed up with a guy who shot a custom built AR10 rifle. All I will say is, he was not on intimate terms with the "X" ring.

Don

I have yet to see a shooter come to the line with a .223.

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I've done it, but then I am a casual occasional recreational rifle shooter not in a league with the serious competitors. As I said, the AR is not as easy to shoot as a bolt action and the pit crew whines about looking for the small holes. I will probably stick with the .308 for F-T/R 1000 and take the AR to some 600 yard shoots to get the use out of my Krieger barrel and JLK bullets.

I plan to do some shooting to see if a rest is enough steadier than a bipod for me to set up for F Open. I know the usual Open calibers will shoot closer to the wind than .308, but I would have to get better actual calm air accuracy to make it worth the trouble to me.

...the pit crew whines about looking for the small holes.

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I'll bet they do, Jim. I know we have a tough time jamming the spotting disk into the 6mm holes.

Don

Well, I wasn't going to say that, but now you mention it, it seems my .22 is too small but their 6mm is ok.

There was a guy shooting a 6BR in F-Open the last time I shot LR. He says he gives up a little in the wind to the bigger 6s and 6.5s but longer barrel life and less recoil are worth it. I think he was the high man, so it must be a good compromise.

Bolt gun. But how tight do you really need your groups..unless you are shooting competition it aint that importante. As long as you get like a 1moa your fine.

The DPMS autoloader in .308 is capable of sustained .5 MOA accuracy when the barrel is properly broken in. Not many bolt-actions can achieve that.

Edit to add: Proper breaking-in includes firing 1 shot, breaking the rifle down, cleaning and lubricating it. Fire 1 shot, breaking it down...do this 200 times. See, most people simply are too impatient to properly break-in their autoloader's barreled action.

Of course, in all fairness, there is a single-shot Savage, the model 10 or 12 that factory-stock, grouped a freakish .5" (not .5 MOA...1/2 inch groups) at 500 yards with factory ammo.

Doc2005

How in the heck does that guy Tubbs do as well as he does if he needs a bolt action? He shoots that fancy schmancy AR10 derivative SRxxx ???

Bolt action will always be more accurate than an autoloader, because there are no moving/reciprocating parts (neglecting the firing pin) in motion while the gun is being fired in a bolt gun.

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Actually, the bullet has left the bore of a gas gun before any of the reciprocating parts begin to move. (take a look at some freeze-frame shots of a gas gun firing and you will see the muzzle flash before the bolt carrier begins to budge). It takes time to pressurize the gas chamber and then begin accelerating the massive carrier. Additionally, the process can be easily delayed further on an AR type action by installing a rate reducer (a loop inserted in the gas tube to lengthen it).

Bolt actions have reciprocating, rotating bolts. Gas guns have reciprocating, rotating bolts. The difference is in where the cycling energy comes from.

That being said, most of my gas guns will dent the cartridge case upon loading. My bolt actions don't do that. Therein may be some actual material difference.

I remember reading a book on sniper rifles, and the author soundly rejected semi-autos for that role, stating that the extra mechanism made them too inaccurate. Later in the book he gave us his accuracy requirements for a decent sniper rifle - 1 MOA or better.

Uh.... I don't know where it comes from, but there is some of what I would call prejudice in this matter. Bottom line is you should use the rifle you like while understanding that others will use different rifles.

There was a guy shooting a 6BR in F-Open the last time I shot LR. He says he gives up a little in the wind to the bigger 6s and 6.5s but longer barrel life and less recoil are worth it. I think he was the high man, so it must be a good compromise.

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Jim,

At our September match, the high guy was shooting a 6mm-47 (6.5-47 Lapua necked down to 6mm) and did extremely well considering the wind. In the Open class that I shoot in (I shoot a 6.5x55), bolt guns in 6.5mm dominate with more and more 6mm's being shot.

Guys,

You can post all the manufacturer's "talking points" all you want, but the plain 'ol results on the firing line don't lie: bolt guns outshoot autoloaders at LR.

Don

How in the heck does that guy Tubbs do as well as he does if he needs a bolt action? He shoots that fancy schmancy AR10 derivative SRxxx ???

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Tubb hung the SR25 up a long time ago. He's shooting a bolt gun, his own design, the Tubb 2000.

That said, an autoloader - an AR15 no less - won Camp Perry overall this year, so take that for what it's worth.

Bolt action rifles are simpler. That means they can be put into a wide variety of stocks made of a wide variety of materials, and you can even make the stock yourself. Free-floating, bedding, etc. are trivial. Adding a bipod is trivial.

If you build or buy a bolt rifle for accuracy, you pay for that accuracy and nothing else, because there's essentially nothing in a bolt gun that doesn't go towards putting a bullet downrange accurately.

If you build or buy an AR, you're paying for the gas system, specific stocks, etc. Not all of your money goes into putting a bullet downrange as accurately as possible; some of it goes into making the action cycle itself. You have a gas port in the barrel, too; with a boltie, the barrel is just a smooth, uninterrupted, rifled bore. You are also somewhat more limited in your options for how to put the thing together, though the standard AR platform offers a lot more variety than most. The .308, not quite so much variety.

Not much of this matters until you want serious, serious accuracy. But when you do, you get smaller groups for your buck from a boltie.

A lot of that is splitting hairs, but the law of diminishing returns really applies to accuracy when you get far enough past 1 MOA. You want a little more accuracy, you pay a good deal more.

Oh yeah?! Well, my Paw's tuffer'n yur Paw!

USSR, I never shot my AR-10 past 600, but in my experience if the guns shoot the same at 100 with the same cartridge, they will shoot the same at 1000. At that point it's the shooter.

I'm not advocatng one over the other in general. As I noted, if a fast follow up shot is required, and perfect accuracy is not, get a autoloader.

I've shot a number of sniper type matches that requires running between points, and where comstock scoring was used. Targets ranged from 100-600 yards. No bolt guns in the top 10. I even did passably well with my 1 MOA M1A.

No question that the bolt gun rules pure accuracy. When I shoot 1K, my rifle of choice is my 40X. You have to match the rifle to the course of fire. I'm more interested in tactical shooting and hunting, and the F class rifle really doesn't fit in there.

YMMV

I think we are comparing apples to oranges

If I hear you correctly, you are saying a solidly breeched single shot has the advantage over a repeater. Not necessarily that a bolt gun is the hands down best. It can be any single shot or not?

If you want to talk no holds barred accuracy, then a falling block single shot like a Winchester High Wall, a Sharps, Farquharson, Ruger or similar would likely have the same response as a similarly barreled bolt gun. The thing is, people probably do not want to pay the price to get the action, etc. when they can buy the bolt gun stuff off the shelf, basically.

At least this makes sense to my brain.

I have seen the Cooper rifles which are to my unprofessional eye a highly toleranced Win Model 70 with a single shot capacity. The floor of the action tube is not pierced with the big hole for the feed, making it stiffer. These are as accurate as I've seen readily available where I could buy one if I were willing to pony up the cash.

Interesting thought about a falling block.

A good Sharps .45-70 can shoot pretty amazing groups at 1000 yards. A hunting buddy has a brother who wins those crazy 1000 yard competitions. Takes him 8 hours to load 40 rounds, but they are PERFECT in every imaginable way. Shoots ridiculously small groups. One hole, and way past 100 yards. So the rifle is quite capable. The falling block does seat the same every time, if the cartridge is sized right. Should be better than a bolt, in theory.

Maybe so, but I have never seen a falling block in modern long range competition. Or reliably heard about one in benchrest. Friend of mine has a BSA Martini .22 which he says is extremely accurate IF he does everything just right. But that it is more sensitive to position and hold than a bolt action.

My Winchester is a great black powder rifle, though; and that friend's Sharps is just wonderful.

My estimate is that bolt guns in 308-class cartridges have on average about 4x more "accuracy per dollar spent" than 308-class semi-autos.

...in my experience if the guns shoot the same at 100 with the same cartridge, they will shoot the same at 1000.

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Tod,

The reason why .25MOA rifles at 100 yards cannot shoot .25MOA at 1,000 yards is mostly a result of environmental conditions. The effect of wind upon a bullet at 100 yards is negligible; the effect of wind at 1,000 yards can be measured in feet. Also, mix in the mirage that is common during the summer months when most LR shooting is done, and you are literally fighting Ma Nature. In my experience, sub 1.0MOA rifles at 100 yards, quickly become 1.5MOA to 2.0MOA rifles at 1,000 yards in the hands of a good shooter.

Don