Use deadly force?

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ganymede

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Downtown SL, Ut.
One night I was hiking in memery grove which is just a few blocks from down town Salt Lake where I live. (You may remember it's where they searched extensivly for both Lorrie Hacking and Ellizabeth Smart.) I was carring a 10 inch bowie knife in plain view on my side. I started hearing these screaming anamilistic howling noises. It was dark, maybe 12 o'clock in the morning and the only light was from the moon. The noises approached, they grew in volume and frequency. I unbuckled my knife. In the dim glow of the moon I could make out two men approaching me. They drew together and whispereed to each other. I moved the holster to my back so it would not be seen and unsheathed my blade. At 10 inches long and 3 inches wide it would be capable of delivering a massive wound chanel. They closed on my position watching me, the noises had stopped, I could only hear the sound of City Creek nearby, all my attention focused on what was about to happen. They were within five feet of me, now I could make out there faces. They were in there late 20's and looked scragly. My heart was racing. As the man nearest me came closest he lunged at me and screamed. My arm tightened I became ready to drive the the knife, upercut into his side. I had a split second, his body contacted with mine and I hesitated to end his life one second longer. And after he pushed his body against mine, he and his friend walked on and howled.

I remeber thinking that man ought to know how close he had just come to dieing. I yelled "what the **** is wrong with you? you almost died." he said "what?" and I showed him the knife. they kept walking after that not saying another word, and I didn't hear a howl the rest of the night.

I turned arround not long after that, once I was pretty sure I wouldnt catch up to them as they made their exit. I reflected upon what had happened. I was glad I had not stabed that man, we were in an area not accessable by ambulance and he surly would have bled to death in a few minuets. There is a lot of drug activity in the grove. There is also a lot of activity involving people into the occult. Pentagrahms and stick figures hanging from trees are not all that uncommon to find up there. Perhaps the men were drunk, perhaps they had taken LSD or some other halucinagen. Either way that man put him self into a very dangerous postion and is lucky I didnt react as many people would have done. because I did not stab him I don't have to go through the rest of my life wondering if i made the right decision.

Some might ask "What if his intentions had been more then just to frighten you and you missed your oppurtunity." Well hopefully I would have had time to do something about it, I guess I was waiting for him to hit me, do something to me so I would know his intentions. Deadly force isn't something to be taken lightly. I hope I don't have to make that decision agian. And if I do, I hope it will be the right one agian.
 
If I were in your situation, I would've only done one thing differently.

First I would've moved to avoid them. I assume there's room enough to walk side-by-side on whatever path you were taking, I'd step off and let them by.

And if they were still interested in me, I would've showed them the knife. Notice how seeing it shut them up after? Showing someone that their immediate actions may well determine how the rest of their life is spent is a good way to separate the malicious from the prankster.

Sometimes you're morally justified in an attack, whether overt or by-surprise, but in a situation like that I would only feel justified stabbing the fellow if he knew it was definitely NOT prank the hiker time.
 
There are lots of good, bright flashlights small enough to pocket carry or belt carry, and many are pretty inexpensive to boot. As far as I know, a small flashlight isn't considered a weapon in most places. An eyeful of photons might prove to be an adequate deterrent to some folks in some circumstances, and would at least allow you to see hands and determine whether anyone is carrying something potentially dangerous.

If it's legal in your jurisdiction, carrying pepper spray might be another option to consider. There are potential down sides- you have to be careful of wind direction, it doesn't work on everyone- but it is a possibility worth thinking about.

Letting strangers close to within contact distance in the dark in isolated areas is not high on the list of what I'd call 'really good plans.' An evasive change of course on your part before they got within converstional distance, even if it meant leaving the trail, and issuing a strong verbal challenge from the interview stance if they changed course to stay oriented on you, might have been a better idea.

No matter what, it seems you did the right thing under the circumstances that time. But you were not in control of the situation, and it was only a matter of your assailant's intent (or lack of it) that you were not attacked and thereby forced to defend yourself with your knife. It's better to keep potential trouble at a distance when you see it coming, there are enough times that "your awareness fails" and people close with you unseen.

BTDT my own self...

Stay Safe,

lpl/nc
 
good job.

like you, i'd have been rather hesitant to use my knife... maybe to the point of being too late.

only thing to add is that i'd have had NO problem giving one or both of those punks a faceful of OC spray before using the knife.
 
From someone who also lived in the avenues for a while,

I gotta tell you man, you are using some VERY flawed logic.

As someone who worked a lot in the music biz in SLC, letting the appearance of these "black wearing people" incline you towards violence is just as bad as banning 'evil black rifles' for their appearance. In SLC, the violence is in the gangs not the goths.

Problem #2, A bowie knife? Do you have a plan to explain to a jury that you were walking around in an area you believe to be unsafe, among people you don't trust, and your only option was to arm yourself with a bowie knife and go anyway?! YOU JUST TOOK A KNIFE TO A GUNFIGHT. DON't HANG OUT IN MEMORY GROVE!! (Or pioneer park, for that matter.) The whole idea of legal justification for self-defense homicide is that you had absolutely no other choice. You made ALL KINDS OF CHOICES that put you into that situation.

I'm going to guess that you aren't old enough to get a carry permit. When you are, get some more extensive training, not just to carry, but about leading an aware defensive lifestyle. Read "Utah Gun Law (1 and 2)" by Mitch Vilos. Take some classes from Clark Aposhian.

I have been known to walk in that very spot, my appearance has been less than gentlemanly, and I have been known to do things in public other people think are strange. I have also been permitted to carry for 12 years now. WOULD YOU HAVE PULLED OUT A BOWIE KNIFE ON ME TOO?
 
:scrutiny:

Sounds like a tarzan movie I saw once. :barf:
1. Walking in parks with a knife at midnight probably isnt a good plan
2. Not running at the sound / sight of danger isnt a good plan, even with stand-your-ground laws in-place

Foolish.
 
When I see someone howling, I make a point of getting away from them if possible. If not possible, there's no need to tell them if they were close to death.
 
First, the OP made multiple mistakes in the events as they were reiterated. I won't go into them, some have touched on a few, but much more lightly than I would, and so I won't.

my appearance has been less than gentlemanly, and I have been known to do things in public other people think are strange. I have also been permitted to carry for 12 years now. WOULD YOU HAVE PULLED OUT A BOWIE KNIFE ON ME TOO?

You really want someone to answer that question? :banghead:

Tell you what though, you act wierd with a partner like those two apparently did, in that location at that hour, and come within striking distance of myself, you are very likely to find yourself either picking yourself up off the ground, waking up on the ground, waking up in the hospital, or not waking up at all. Take your pick, the outcome is up to the two turds who pulled this stunt on the OP.

They were acting aggressively, in a threatening manner, one making physical contact with the OP. There'll be no physical contact without repercussions, severe repercussions.

As well, you want to walk arounmd less than gentlemanly, and do things that are strange to others, and you are allowed a ccw license? Now what in the hell is the world coming to:rolleyes:

Don't like the posted comments, tough----live with it, but keep in mind there are people out there who'll rock your world if you get cute with them, take your chances as you will, it's not a matter of if, but when you'll be challenged on the actions.

Brownie
 
I can absolutely promise you, in the state of Utah, physical contact does not justify deadly force nor the threat of deadly force.

And I can absolutely guarantee you, in the circumstances presented by those two at that location, at that hour of the night, anyone acting like that is going to be taken as a potential threat first, from the distance related by the OP, and as they get closer, be considered a threat to my person.

As such, they'll be dealt with with extreme prejudice physically if the get close enough, and at the first sign of attempting to touch me, they'll be taken down for their efforts.

No statute anywhere tells anyone they can't defend themselves when threatened. I'm just guessing here, but a jury of mom and dads, whem hearing the tale in court [ if it got that far for some reason ], would be very willling to believe they would have been threatened and in fear based on the aggressors actions toward the OP.

Look up the term "battery" in blacks law dictionary or the Utah state statutes. As in assault and battery. I see you study law, you should know better than to make statements like you have. Now we have someome studying "law" who states "my appearance has been less than gentlemanly, and I have been known to do things in public other people think are strange".:eek: One question if you don't mind--are you a goth?:D

They would have been warned off verbally, which the OP didn't do. Forewarned has always been good enough for me, people don't heed the warning, they get what they get, and I'll not be touched by anyone unwillingly without their having to seek medical attention.

This could have easily turned into a murder of the OP as well as just some jokers out "acting wierd". You err on the side of caution, or you decide to be a victim.

BTW- The OP was a victim here, whether people realize that or not.

Brownie
 
I can absolutely promise you, in the state of Utah, physical contact does not justify deadly force nor the threat of deadly force.

that's because if somebody bumps you on an escalator or accidentally nudges you on an elevator, you can't draw your CCW and shoot him/her.

when some crazed, possibly intoxicated person approaches you strangely in the night and makes contact, it's an entirely different situation.

admittedly, the 10" monster blade isn't gonna go over great if you go to trial. as i said, OC/pepper is a far better choice over a blade for multiple attackers if you aren't able to carry a firearm.
 
i dont understand why you didnt get vocal with them...
i carry a gun because i hope that it will save a life, mine and the person who might attack me if i didnt have one.
if im not allowed to carry a gun i carry a blade and in a threaghtening situation im more than happy to show i have it. (to the person with the ccw... if im within 15 feet of you i dont care how quick draw mc'graw you are... if you go to draw a gun your toast)
so if im within about 15 feet of someone thats displaying threatening body language i would pull out the knife and let them know that i am completely willing to use it if they do not continue on their current path and let me move off to the side. (let them know that you are willing to move... that way you dont incite stupid macho man actions of YOU MOVE)
 
Badly executed E&E drill. Why did you just stand there? Why didn't you loudly warn him to "BACK OFF!!"? Why didn't you step aside and display the weapon warning them to move on? I can't believe you just stood there like a tree and let the scum make contact.:banghead:
 
response

Why I didn't get vocal with them, why I made the mistakes I did? To be honest I was scared. I wasn't thinking clearly. Admitidly walking arround memory grove at midnight isn't the safest thing to do, I like taking walks at night and there are very few people out there at that time. I could have attempted to avoid them, I saw them from about 50 feet away and it is one of the actions I considered. But my alternate routes were through thick brush and I could have been caught up to easily. Also I felt fleeing would show fear and weakness in their eyes and many people will react with a predator/prey response in that sort of situation. The thought of warning them off didn't occur to me honestly. I didn't show them the knife first because I didn't want them to know all the cards I was holding, they thought of me as defensless and knew I wasn't and I thought that an advantage in an attack. If I'd had a can of peperspray I would most definatly of used it.

If I had used that knife, even if their intentions had been more then just to scare me, I would have been in a very troubling legal situation. It would have been my word versus the two (or one depending on the outcome) of theirs. Also I'd like to reiterate that these people wern't goths, they looked more like homeless people. A few of my freinds are goths and I'm hardly judgmental. and to answer your question, if you had acted in that manor and threated my physical well being that way, yes I would have pulled a knife on you too, do you think your exempt? and BTW yes its pefectly legal to carry any size knife, sword or non NFA gun in Utah as long as it isnt concealed. (Some restrictions apply to guns though)
 
mljdeckard : No jury in utah is going to side with a guy who walks around parks in SLC with a bowie knife. Will you tell me which state you live in which allows deadly force to protect against battery?

How about the Disparity of Force argument?

I'm not saying that he'd be justified in stabbing two guys for making loud howling noises or for bumping into him, but if two or more people without weapons attack someone and the victim has a reasonable suspicion that he or she will be severely injured or killed then they have a right to defend themselves with deadly force even if their attackers don't have weapons.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BTT/is_154_25/ai_77824400

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3197/is_n3_v37/ai_12462185

http://www.equipped.com/us_primer.htm
 
Also I would like to mention, that I am new to the formal idea of personal defense. I have no training, and just started coming to forums like this in the last six months. I make no claim to knowing what the best thing to do is in a given situation. Most of you have proboly seen the movie "The Brave One" with Jodie Foster. I had something happen to me, similar to what happened to her, and I guess thats why I'm here learning what I can. I'll post about it some time probobly. Oh and I made LOTS more mistakes that time.
 
Under no circumstances would I have allowed the guy to get within arm's reach of me. If that means running away, fine! I'll run away. If it means getting off the path and going into the woods, or even entering the stream bed, I'd do that, too.

Waiting to strike is good; but, doing it at body contact distance is foolish. You need to work a little more on your, 'game plan'. In your narrative you've clearly shown you had, both, the time as well as the opportunity to either withdraw, or else to get out of the way.

In my opinion that's what you should have done. Allowing the guy to actually touch you while you're holding a large knife is (almost) tantamount to looking for an excuse to give it to him. I didn't say that. I only thought it; but, the prosecuting attorney would be sure to! ;)
 
also... if in that situation again i would suggest backing yourself into the thicket... if you must fight off two full grown men it is very good to be in an area that they cannot both attack you at once. + a knife is much more useful in that type of situation.
 
This is not the best forum to discuss H2H self defense. There is too broad an audience. That being said, I would have highly recommended you shout "Back off!" or "Stop!", I like "back off" better, with your left hand partially extended about chest height toward the two guys.

That would have been the way to give them notice and hopefully get the attention of anyone else in the area.

I would not recommend showing the knife as that would be considered brandishing which is illegal in most states.

I agree that getting off the x would have been the prudent things to do as well.
 
No jury in utah is going to side with a guy who walks around parks in SLC with a bowie knife.

No jury? You have a lot to learn about the court systems to make that claim. I'll bet if both the others had knives, has stabbed him one or more times and he had stabbed one or both back, one of the died and it went to trial, the jury would certainly consider it an legitimate actionable defense. Does Utah not allow carry of knives over certain lengths by some chance? That might be a mitigating decision on the juries part if the OP was illegally carrying a deadly weapon as defined by Utah statute.

Will you tell me which state you live in which allows deadly force to protect against battery?

You are asking a question in hindsight. Battery could be a wife getting beaten by an estranged husband as well. Think the wife doesn't have a right to protect herself in that scenario? Think again.

There's simple battery, and assault and battery with intent to harm another. Battery can be defended with lethal force if the SD rules/guidelines are met within the statutes.

Are you telling me Utah does not have assault and battery as an arrestable offence on their books? If they do, battery is a crime, and battery can and often will be deadly to one of the parties involved. Happens everyday, all over the US.

Brownie
 
I am glad you didn't use deadly force as it wasn't needed.. You did well .. I wouldn't have showed them the weapon after they walked off.. Just my .02 that is doing nothing to help the situation..
 
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