Opinions: Out of the Box vs. Tuned by a 'Smith

1911

1911

I would never buy a handgun which needed reliability tuning by a smith before I ever handled it.

This does not preclude me from purchasing custom guns, nor sending in a functional gun for additional work.

My fondness of 1911s doesn't mean that I'll knowingly purchase an unreliable one.

P7M8

1911

Out of the box - 9mm Hi-Power if I could test fire it before using it. SigP226 in 9mm if I couldn't

Tuned - I don't play that game anymore. I have seen more guns fail after "reliability jobs" than even I can believe. Now, rounding, refinishing, that sort of thing is fine. I just don't want the action touched.

All of my pistols have worked well with no tuning. Some have needed a little break-in period (my SIG P225 included!) before they began functioning perfectly. If I had to pick one that HAD to work perfectly right out of the box, it'd probably be a Glock 19.

For the one that I COULD have tuned (though it might need no tuning), I'd go with a Hi-Power.

Tuned - I don't play that game anymore. I have seen more guns fail after "reliability jobs" than even I can believe. Now, rounding, refinishing, that sort of thing is fine. I just don't want the action touched.

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People develop such wierd ideas. You see guys who probably had their guns hacked up by the subliterate moron with a "gunsmith" shingle in the strip mall next to the Megabux coffee shop, and write off the whole idea of internal improvements to your gun as a "game"?

Oy vey!

Guns are decently complex machines, but they are not magic boxes that you dare not let anyone open up, 'ere they become choleric and make you look dopey at the range. How they work is well understood, and how to improve them is well understood too. So why not have somebody competent improve it if you want to? Your argument could be used to argue against improving anything, ever... it is an irrational, emotional overreaction to write off ever having "the action touched" based on what the cro-magnons at the local range have had done by the local heater-hacker.

Hey, that sounded pretty good.

Out of box: new-production Colt Series 70.
Modified: Colt Delta Elite

1. Out of box, I'd go w/ the HK P7M8
2. Tuned...1911

Of the choices you gave, I'd go w/ the S&W 945

Sean, I'd disagree a bit. Coming from the old days of when the only ammo a 1911 would feed out of the box was hardball, I've done the "buy gun, take to gunsmith" thing several times. Now I can buy a 1911 factory new and shoot a match with it the same day, zero problems. That wasn't the standard before.

No need to get one tuned up, for the most part.

And locating a good smith is much harder than you'd imagine. There are several here in my town and none of them are very good. Sort of the "in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king" thing.

Out of the box untuned would be a Glock.

Tuned (modified) would be a 1911

Out of the box: SW686+

Tuned: 1911

That said, you can also buy a really good 1911 for a few hundred more that shows up "tuned" out of the box. For some reason I've never been able to fathom, people seem to think the way to go is buy a $700 Springfield or Colt and send it along with $400 to a gunsmith for three months as opposed to spending maybe a grand on an STI or $1200 on a Wilson that is right to begin with.

BTW: I agre with the comment on finding a good gunsmith. I sometimes say, the ones out here in Kali act like movie stars and they charge like brain surgeons.

SIGs, Glocks and Smiths seldom need tuning or out of the box repairs. With mass market 1911's it's hard to predict. Kimbers and Springfield Armorys have a huge send-back rate. One of the big distributors in the Southwest recently suspended dealing with Kimber until quality control turns around.


The American Pistolsmiths Guild is a good place to start looking for a 'Smith who is competent and devoted to sound business practices. Some of them who are overloaded will refer you to non guild pistolsmiths whom they know personally. A good smith's turn around time is offen as fast or faster than the local gun butcher. www.americanpistol.com

Even the local gunbutcher sometimes gets rave reviews from some of his customers leading to this:
"Tuned - I don't play that game anymore. I have seen more guns fail after "reliability jobs" than even I can believe. Now, rounding, refinishing, that sort of thing is fine. I just don't want the action touched."
- which is a reasonable and well thought out response to the way things really are-given the huge number and wide distribution of bad gunsmiths.

Sean, I'd disagree a bit. Coming from the old days of when the only ammo a 1911 would feed out of the box, I've done the "buy gun, take to gunsmith" thing several times. Now I can buy a 1911 factory new and shoot a match with it the same day, zero problems. That wasn't the standard before.

No need to get one tuned up, for the most part.

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Al, read my post again. Better yet, I'll quote myself:

So why not have somebody competent improve it if you want to?

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"want to" not being the same as "need," at least not in the Standard American English I'm used to using.

Between the choices given, its a tough call. The 945 is a very slick and reliable gun. Not a 1911 but close. It's probably more accurate by a good margin over the HP, custom tuned or not.
But there is a certain mojo the HP has... it's a classic and the 945 isn't. A tuned HP can be reliable as the sunrise.
You also have a 9 vs 45 choice here.

So really, like all other gun questions, it's a matter of taste.
Personally, I'd take the tuned HP.

1911

1911

Out of the choices you gave, I pick the 945. I shot one about 6 months ago...8 rounds, one hole group at 25 yards, shooting off of sandbags.

My choice, both out of the box and tuned, read the signature.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

I have no problem with improving an already good gun, but when a maker tells me his guns have to be "broken in" by firing hundreds of rounds of ammo until the warranty expires, or taken to a gunsmith for "tuning", I beg leave to leave his gun on the counter. A gun that doesn't work out of the box with standard factory ammo is a POS made by fools who must think I am as stupid as they are.

Jim

My own choices(not yours) are
Sig P210 out of the box
1911 for tuning

OTB: HKUSP


Tuned : HKUSP w/ Gray's triggerwork

Sean, actually I've gone just the opposite road from what you seem to think.

I worked in the gun business for years. I understand the inner workings of firearms very well, and the "hacks" that worked on the guns I am refering to were the big names, and guys who even knew more than the big names.

Over the years, before I and everyone I know abandoned the 1911, we went through over 25 of those things (Colt, Springfield, Kimber) and they all needed work out of the box, and they all failed due to some of the gunsmithing which had been done.

I know, it's a sacred cow. And believe me, I WANT the 1911 to work, nothing handles as well, but I learned the hard way to find a make whose design and manufacturing I could trust.

Now - no flames, just my experience here.

I would like to know of these "problems" with Kimbers and SA 1911's........I've never heard of any problems with Kimber QC but, I have heard of SA having some QC problems............I own a Kimber Classic Custom II, and I have had zero problems with it. What can I expect in the future that you guys might know about or heard about? Also, looking at purchasing a Springfield Armory TRP Operator in the near future, any known problems with this particular SA model 1911 that I should know about? Info would be most appreciated!

If your kimber has worked well for a while, it is probably going to be just fine. Some people managed to shoot tens of thousands of rounds through good examples. When they first started out, the good press they got seemed to be justtified. The problems seem to be related to function right out of the box and are discovered by new buyers right after they get to the range. One shooter told me that his jammed and Kimber cheerfully fixed it. That was the day his adjustible sight came apart and the springs departed into the weeds. It appears that Kimber was so well received that they branched out into a great variety of pistols and quality control went by the wayside.

This may have been a temporary problem but credibility was damaged with at least one important distributor.

This is a long standing theme. A man who has been in the distributing business for 40 years told me that absolutely none of the companies who produce the 1911 have maintained consistent quality control.

My Colt Series 80s have been reliable over several thousand rounds with no broken parts. They did need trigger jobs and accuracy work.

My Springfield armory came with an untentioned extractor right out of the box, was functional after I applied tension to the extractor and then had to have a Wilson extractor after the original lost tension after 900 rounds. It also came with a half-weight titanium firing pin that wouild not always set off factory loaded primers. The slide was bored off-center and overlarge for the barrel . It took a skilled gunsmith to put that right .

it is a design that can be reliable if the manufacturers trouble themselves to make it so.

i've also found out that S&W makes the frames and slides for Kimber......from a S&W Rep at my local gunshop, they even roll stamp the "Kimber" logo onto the slide...........amazing!

For what it is worth, I do seem to be a jinx when I get around 1911s. My experience is also with older Springfields (late 80's vintage), so I don't know about the new ones. Also, I suspect it depends how many rounds you put down range.

I doubt there is any one problem with Kimbers that can't be said about 1911s in general. They aren't jammomatics, but then, they never went the flawless 1,000s of rounds that other guns such as HK, Sig, and Glock seem to, either.

The Kimber (it was one of the first ones released) was the most reliable of the 8 1911 style pistols I've personally gone through. Still, failure to lock open with every magazine (and I tried a bunch, all top quality) - sure replace the slide stop. Did that. Still didn't lock open reliably. And, I ask you - why the Hell should I have to replace parts on a brand new gun? Loose plunger tube. Restaked, but, WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO? Not reliable with all hollow points - again, Sig, HK, Browning, and Glock seem to have this down.

I won't bore you with the list from the Colts and Springfields, but if it could break, it did. This included a hammer strut of all things. Geeez.

1911's are fantastic designs - sliding trigger, low bore axis, slim, big bullet, best trigger reset in the business. The only thing that probably handles better is a P7M8. But, I think that things could be improved - and the recent introduction of external, pivoting extractors is very good and follows behind dovetailed front sights being common. Now, ditch the plunger tube, put in a ramped barrel, make a more sensitive grip safety, and CAD/CAM the whole thing with new machinery - and that will be a fighting pistol.

I know, so and so can work on a 1911. I saw a Gunsite instructor's pistol have hammer follow. Now, if there is one place that should be able to put out a reliable 1911, it's Gunsite. Seen Les Baers have failures to feed with hardball. And, a whole handful of others top notch 'smiths.

This isn't a flame - this is me begging someone to make a 1911 that can slog it out for a few 100,000 rounds of hard use and abuse without bobbling just like the vast majority of Sigs and Glocks do.

Is it just me,


or did I hear someone say 'the emperor has no clothes'?


Nevertheless, I STILL WANT A 1911!