Folding the ATF into the FBI?

ATF doesnt handle "tax" part of the NFA anymore.

They did until DOHS was formed.

One of the biggest obstacles to merging two agencies is figuring out who is going to be the 'Grand Poobah' over the united agency, and who from which agency will take over the parallel functions that become one. The resistance to merging comes not only from those within the agencies, but from their various allies outside the agencies, read: Congress.

Another stumbling block is what to do with the people who suddenly become 'excess' personnel. Let's say you have two agencies of 1,000 employees each. They each have a training department of 20 employees. When the agencies merge, they will not need a 40 employee training department. Some one will have to go. The question will be who? The unions will get involved bickering over seniority issues. Another problem will be determining who are the best choices from the two training departments to remain in the one 'unified' department. The named manager of that unified training department will have his prejudices and favorites from his old organization. Anyone who is left out, passed over, and determined to be in excess will scream discrimination. Undoubtedly there will be lawsuits.

Pilgrim

Well, I'm not sure if this will answer the question, but this is at least why they think they are around, from an alcohol and tobacco standpoint (this is their mission statement):

*to disrupt and eliminate criminal and terrorist organizations by identifying, investigating and arresting offenders who traffic in contraband cigarettes and illegal liquor;
*to conduct financial investigations in conjunction with a alcohol and tobacco diversion investigations in order to seize and deny further access to assets and funds utilized by criminal enterprises and terrorist organizations;
*to prevent criminal encroachment of the legitimate alcohol and tobacco industries by organizations trafficking in counterfeit/contraband cigarettes and illegal liquor and;
*to assist local, state, and other Federal law enforcement and tax agencies in order to thoroughly investigate the interstate trafficking of contraband cigarettes and liquor.

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The Firearms division does not seem to have a mission statement, at least not one prominently displayed at the top of the web page like the AT division.

ATF doesnt handle "tax" part of the NFA anymore.

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While I believe the check is made out to DoJ, the ATF certainly handles the paperwork and stamps for NFA. At least that is who the checks get mailed to, and who the paperwork comes back from.

Believe me when I say you do not want the FBI dealing with guns, if you guys think the ATF is bad........

In the early 1990s there was such a proposal to give the FBI authority over firearms regulation and disband the ATF. The NRA and pro-gun allies killed the proposal because of concern that the FBI would be too effective. The FBI is about 5 times larger than the ATF. Also the NRA would find it politically harder to bash the FBI because most people have a favorable view of the FBI.

Following 9/11, ATF was split with part going to Homeland Security and part remaining under Treasury. They still handle all licensing and tax collecting for Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms. Now that they handle most/all "Explosives" cases, there is virtually no chance of getting rid of them.

Moonshine

The ATF is an offshoot of the government agency that hunted down moonshiners during prohibition. Their heritage is one of corruption and missed opportunity. They are over two hundred years old with their initial goal of collecting tax on distilled spirits in the late 1790's. The conflicts within the organization itself and the other police type units of government prevent it from being totally effective today. All this can change as they are now under a new authority. Also the current bashing ATF gets began a long time ago by moonshiners trying to make a living on distilled alcohol.

Now that they handle most/all "Explosives" cases,

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ATF&E has also started several multi jurisdictional Arson Task Forces in troubled spots around the country.


We have thirty Investigators from Federal, State, Local, and Private Industry in my Task Force. We also have two four legged "Investigators".

We respond to the following.

Fire related fatalities / Serious injuries

Fire of similar nature affecting one or more jurisdictions or fire investigation that cross jurisdictional boundaries

Large property losses

Houses of worship

Serial Arson / Arson for Profit

Incidents involving detonation of explosives

Special circumstances whereby the local jurisdiction determines the task force is needed

Governmental agencies are entropic.....they tend to persist and expand inexorably and eternally unless acted upon by an enormous external force, kind of like the universe. They resist change, any change for any reason with almost insanely violent rhetoric and posturing.

If we were to actually combine the two agencies the probable outcome would be the eventual spin off of four separate and equally evil agencies through a process similar to amoebas reproducing. Evil propagates and reproduces swiftly and efficiently and nothing is as efficient at growing and expanding as the evil of government.

The real question should be how do we exterminate these anti freedom agencies.

Folidng the ATF into the FBI?

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To heck with that. Let's fold it into the ocean; a really deep part of the ocean.

I don't mean to change the subject but,

Hotpig I like your sig line

They keep talking about drafting a Constitution for Iraq . Why don't we just give them ours? It was written by a lot of really smart guys, it has worked for over 200 years, and we are not using it anymore.

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This from the FBI website.

http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/history/text.htm

Today, most Americans take for granted that our country needs a federal investigative service, but in 1908, the establishment of this kind of agency at a national level was highly controversial. The U.S. Constitution is based on "federalism:" a national government with jurisdiction over matters that crossed boundaries, like interstate commerce and foreign affairs, with all other powers reserved to the states. Through the 1800s, Americans usually looked to cities, counties, and states to fulfill most government responsibilities. However, by the 20th century, easier transportation and communications had created a climate of opinion favorable to the federal government establishing a strong investigative tradition.

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Even the FBI's own website hints of its own unconstitutionality, not to mention that of the DEA, BATFE, etc, etc.

This sig line gets me mixed reviews.

Is it just me, or does anyone else find it amazing that during the mad cow epidemic our government could track a single cow, born in Canada almost three years ago, right to the stall where she slept in the state of Washington? And, they tracked her calves to their stalls. But they are unable to locate 11 million illegal aliens wandering around our country. Maybe we should give each of them a cow.

The gov could find the illegal's fairly easy. The problem is generally the gov doesn't enforce the laws. The fact is they add to our work force, some pay taxes & some will vote. Some people in the gov love illegal aliens.

It's my opinion that the merger of ATF into DHS was, mostly, a political move to oust people loyal to the Clinton dynasty from within the organization. Maybe.

You know, the wrong kind of JBT.

Congress proposed doing that just before Waco, and again after Waco but it didn't go anywhere.

In fact, that was one reason for the Waco fiasco - the ATF thought they needed a big "show" raid to convince Congress how important the ATF was.

ATF is part of the Justice Department not Homeland Security.

atf

In 1968 they were down to 300 agents as the alcohol and tobacco industries were sell regulated(meaning they paid the bill on time)the customs did not want them and neather did the sec ser.they considered them hot dogs.so they voted in 1968 gun law to give them a place and now I heard they have 6000 agents. at $70/80 thou a yr.-

If you have ever heard George Jones singing about the "T-Men" and "Revenuers" trying to stop his pappy from cooking his brew, those were the predecessors of the ATF. They picked up the firearms responsibilities with passage of the Gun Control Act of 1968. It was a division of the Internal Revenue Service, until it became an independent agency within the Treasury on July 1, 1972. The Homeland Security Act of 2002 moved them over under Department of Justice.

Moonshining went into decline in the 50's. Any agency has to justify their budget. That was the start of the ATF becoming active in the firearms area. There probably is some connectio nwith the 1968 law. You will also note that the modern anti-gun movement started in the late 50's with Senator Dodd as the leading figure. (Thomas Dodd, father the current Senator Dodd.)

What we need to do is bring back the moonshiners.

And can any one provide the logic behind its being legal to make your own beer or wine but not whiskey?

The BATFE is a rogue agency. It needs to be folded out of existance. Tax collecting issues should go to the IRS. Crime issues involving interstate felonies and frauds should be handled by the FBI. Crime issues confined within a single State should be handled by the local police units.

A lot of other federal agencies need to be trimmed or eliminated too.

I doubt that the FBI would want very many of the ATF people, just not real compatible.

Mission Creep

The FBI has slowly crept in on ATF jurisdictions and eventually wants to be the National Police. They would like to take over every federal investigative agency's mission and put them out of business.

This is my last post in this thread so I will make it fun, anyone remember Robert Hanssen? go from there.