What's a Real 1911?

This one's pretty real.. Goes bang bang and has no firing pin safety.



The ultimate of franken guns..



.38super frame, series 70 slide, no matching numbers for anything.. Only got it working a few days ago, but I've put 650rds through it since then and have no had a single malfunction, which is in complete contrast to the way it behaved before I changed the springs to the appropriate weight springs, and replaced the extractor that was from a gold cup that didn't work either.

I also enjoy the yellow tritium dots on the rear sight and the green tritium dot on the front.

I'm proud if I do say so myself. Glad I own this dreadful abomination, and even more glad that it works so well now.

Here's my "real" 1911

1944 Remington Rand frame with 1943 Colt slide.....





Here's my 1911 variant, I don't consider it to be a genuine 1911 like my A1 above, however its still a 1911 in the general sense of the word.
Colt XSE....

Wow, those pictures are so perfect and that pistol so detailed that it almost looks like a rendered model...

nwilliams...Those old Mixmaster USGIs are among my favorites. Cheap 'cause the collectible status is almost flat, and with just enough character that you don't mind pressin'em into service.

Here's a Colt that I bought disassembled with a few parts missing...in a gun show parking lot about 20 years ago for 200 bucks IIRC.

A little tightening and refitting...a new Kart barrel...some correct small parts...and it's one of my go-to pistols that gets carried pretty often.
It runs like a Singer sewin' machine, and shoots better than I can prove without sandbags...and likely WITH sandbags these days.

Total cost...maybe 350 dollars, but I wouldn't bet on it...and about 6 hours of my time. I wouldn't trade it even up for a 2,000-dollar Les Baer.

It now sports a correct, short, milled one-piece trigger. In the picture, it had a long milled trigger in it, and I've since replaced the slidestop with one out of a 1918 Black Army Colt.

Old fuff said; "I know of a major manufacturer that makes their own frames - obviously on CNC machines. At least one batch wasn't to print and out of tolerance.

A CNC machine is only as good as the person that programed it."

Yes, that part of the process has never changed, inspection. It doesn't matter how the parts are made if consistent quality control is not practiced. That might even be considered a later fault caused by bean counters. Pure speculation here but when you open up tolerances you get many more parts to market, they are inferior parts of course,,,,

Yeah Tuner I love my old 1911a1 its by far probably the best deal I've ever gotten any gun purchase in my life. It came with three Wilson Combat mags a mag pouch worth $25 and a Blackhawk thigh holster worth about $120. Considering the gun cost me a grand total of $460 with all those accessories I can't complain. Especially since I just sold the Blackhawk holster on Ebay for $75 that really brings the grand total down to $385. Taking into account the value of the remaining accessories I paid a whopping $255 for the gun itself.

I think that a real 1911 is a military issue model. That was Brownings actual design, and so I think that should be considered the authentic 1911.

I don't think new 1911's are abominations, but I do not think that it is fair to tout the whole 100 years of history argument for pistols that simply aren't the same thing as the original. That isn't to say that they aren't closely related or that new pistols aren't good, but they aren't the real deal, either.

It's a bit like only shooting and owning a heavily modded 10/22 and then talking about how great stock 10/22's are. Sure, at their core the guns are more or less the same, but my target 10/22 is miles apart from my stock 10/22.

Didn't JMB's original design of the 1911 have an external extractor?

How much do the original ones go for?

to the gun snob purist. only a colt ( ignoring 1911A1's were made by other companys) and tat TRUE 1911 lhave no changes from JMB design, despite the actual 1911 changes from JMB design and A1's change even more... i could keep going but


essentialy anyone on about not being a "true 1911" is full o crap. some are closer, but some are farther... its all in the game

Didn't JMB's original design of the 1911 have an external extractor?

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No, but all of the .38 pistols that were examined, and .45 prototypes from about 1904 through 1909 did.

Didn't JMB's original design of the 1911 have an external extractor?

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No...and neither did the Browning High-Power.

It is strictly a government contractor produced pistol Colt - Rem UMC - Rem Rand, etc.

The only legitimate claim for a commercial pistol to being called a 1911 would be the Colt which was John Browning's commercial outlet in America.

All the boutique clones are just that.

Like calling an S&S engine a Harley-Davidson - just plain disinformative.

Ole Funf said:

It is interesting that while various forums are filled with complaints concerning the performance of these newer guns, you don't find many (or any?) of the same concerning those pistols that were made before the numerous makers introduced design, dimensional and material improvements.

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That's because most internet posters have never held, much less shot an actual government .45 pistol. How would they know?

Much like "Kleenex", "Xerox" and "Aspirin" the term "1911" is not as precise, in practical use, as it once was.

Personally, I'd guess a "1911" to be handguns of a specific design made by Colt, Singer, Remington Rand, Union Signal and others through around 1945. It includes M1911A1s and probably some produced in other countries under license.

It probably doesn't include modern variations like Kimber or S&W.

However, despite my usual sympathy for those that would lobby for proper terminology, I'm not at all sure there's an alternative to what we're seeing - I can easily speculate that, if one were to make a majority of the internet language police happy, an entire brigade of "internet design origin police" would rise up to take the place of the language police.

As example, if Kimber were to announce "an all new SIS super uber tactical custom designed 21st century SAO tilt-barrel semi-auto" how long would it be before somebody chimed in noting "Aw, ferecryinoutloud, it's a 1911, who do they think they're kidding?"

I submit: not long. We'll be be annoying a whole segment of the population, it'll just be a different segment. You just can't win.

Personally, I believe calling another's property an "abomination" is rude but it's the internet and our expectations dwindle.

Well, I'm not calling anybody's property an abomination but calling something newly made other than a Colt a 1911 is like calling a Taurus a Python. Just not the same.

My reference wasn't to BigG. T'was in another thread referenced by the OP and will hopefully scroll off the bottom of the page.

But since you make note that calling something other than a Colt a 1911 isn't exactly right...

Should you run across any of those nasty copies marked "Remington Rand", "Union Signal" or "Singer", give me a holler and I'll send you 200.00 plus postage to get those nasty poseurs off your hands.

Hawk - Apologies. No rudeness was intended on my part. I just thought the piece was a relevant, well-written and funny piece of satire. I got the impression the writer intended it to be as well.

Well, I guess I ought to post to this thread since I'm the original offender--I called 'abomination' on poor ezypickns S&W.

I agree with everything posted by Fuff and Tuner about what a 'real' 1911 is. Because I'm younger than them (but who isn't? ) I might include all Colt full size 1911 pattern pistols made to date--knowing full well that they aren't quite real 1911s.

Anything made by another, non-original, manufacturer but based very closely on the original specs is NOT 1911, but might be a 1911 pattern pistol. However, I probably wouldn't jump on some one for referring to their Kimber or Norc as a 1911.

Then we get to "others": If that thing has an external extractor it is no way, no how a 1911.

I don't mind beavertails, extended safeties, or any other manner of doodads or gussying-up--although I find "forward cocking serrations" to be a hideous scar upon the beauty of any pistol, plus I have no need to grate cheese with the nose of my pistols.

But that external extractor.....that's just wrong.

Personally, I believe calling another's property an "abomination" is rude but it's the internet and our expectations dwindle.

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Well, you may be right. In person, you would see my wry smile and hear the sarcasm in my gentle rebuke and we would all have a laugh. On the internet, it's just a harsh statement.

On the other hand, scabbing up some freakshow that bears some passing resemblance to a majestic marvel of engineering history and giving it the same name is just plain offensive.

I much prefer to call them 1911-Pattern pistols...for the clones, near-clones, and the variants. Clears up the confusion.

Well, the official designation of the Smith is SW1911.

Completely different spelling.

Reeding iz funnymental -

Hawk, since you thought I was responding to your post - I was not - I see you misapprehended what I had said in an earlier post. To wit - a 1911 is either a government contract pistol made between 1911 and 1945 or a newly made Colt - I abbreviated my latter post to simply new made Colt. I have a Rem Rand and you won't get it for $200 .

Well, that's what I get for only finishing 2/3 of my high school speed-reading course.

Or it might just be wishful thinking as I really would like a Singer 1911 - especially for 200.00 plus postage.

On the other hand, scabbing up some freakshow that bears some passing resemblance to a majestic marvel of engineering history and giving it the same name is just plain offensive.

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Remind me to post a pic of my STI sometime. Polymer grip frame, chambered in .40S&W, double stack, CCO-sized, ramped barrel, no bushing, FLGR'd.

After that, the external extractor on a S&W might not look so bad - it's relative. 'Course STI doesn't call it a 1911 - that may make it marginally easier to take.

IMHO a " real " 1911 is one that is based from the original . I dont care if its made by Taurus , Smith , Sig , Para , or whoever . I frankly dont care if it has an external or internal extractor on the slide . The 1911 has been an basic design undergoing changes even before it was introduced as the model 1911 With changes in milling abilitys , metal science and metal working , company's wanting to stand out and employing engineers to " improve " the design ( My god its xx years old and we just have to be able to change crap and make it better mindset ) . This started some years ago with our dear departed Jeff Cooper's leather slap game . Over all it did improve the 1911 IMHO as it brought us modern high vis sights , ect.. However it also made the 1911 as the barbie doll for big boys in the sense that you can dress it up however you want easily and for the most part cheaply . Some to many of the " barbie dress up parts " are both useful and affordable . Some are pure marketing ( see full length guide rods and extended slide stops as well as magwells that require bumper pads imho ) for examples lol ) . Point is that if you have a pistol which is pretty much true to the blueprints of the patent you have a " true " 1911 . If you are a purest then buy an original or one of the colt re issues, an older springer , ect.. The folks who value strict adherence to the design consider my series 80 Colt an abomination also . Now i have seen some say llama pitols which look like a 1911 on the outside , but inside are different enough that i wouldnt consider them a 1911 , and i am sure there are others out there ( the brazillin ballister molina ( sp? ) that the movie industry uses because its easyer to get it to cycle blanks comes to mind ) . Things that look like a 1911 on the outside may not be , but if you got a swinging link double bowed trigger that presses straight back , single action pistol whereby the thumb safety presses down for off chances are you have a 1911 . IMHO your sig , your para , your S&W are all members of the club... albet they are " improved " members lol .