I think my rifle has a problem.... (A photo essay)

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Afy

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I have spent a crap load of money on this rifle... a little over $6K... so am a little upset at this point.

well here goes.. havent been able to get one decent group in now close to 200 cartridges fired. So decided to do a more controlled test...

loaded 10 fireformed, trimmed and neck sized, and ten virgin trimmed, full sized. Trim to length of 2.028 inches.

Loaded with 39.5 grains of VV N-150, CCI BR2 primers and 120 grain Sierra Match Kings all to a COAL of 2.913 inches. Approximatly 0.018 off the lands.

The loaded Cartridges... fire formed on the left
IMGP0083.jpg

Post firing... fire formed on left
IMGP0069.jpg

Virgin brass in top row...
IMGP0061.jpg

Closer
IMGP0064.jpg

Group 1... virgin brass
IMGP0068.jpg

Group 2 Virgin Brass
IMGP0067.jpg

Group 3 Fireformed Brass
IMGP0065.jpg

Group 4 Fireformed
IMGP0066.jpg

No cleaning between groups. Average time between shots is 1-2 minutes. Between groups is about 15 minutes. All groups are 5 shots, the aim point is always the black patch that is 1 inch dia, range is 100 meters. Clear day 23 degrees C, no wind.

This is typical of any load combination tried... have now also tried VV N-160, 540, 550, 560, 165 powders.... no luck what so ever.

Given the really sooty conditions of the brass... I suspect my chamber might be too loose. I do clean out the chamber using a large cloth, wrapped around a dowel and Robla Mil, and then another dry cloth...
For the barrel I use a bore dewey or parker hale rod, with VFG wool pills and Robla Mil. No brass brushes etc. I do occaisionally put a punch through patch to soak the barrel.
 
Afy said:
Given the really sooty conditions of the brass... I suspect my chamber might be too loose.
Click to expand...

Basic precision reloader here, so don't take my word for gospel, but your second picture down made me think that exact thought before I ever got to your text at the bottom of the post.

What caliber is that? Barrel details?

Have you checked in on the 6mmbr.com forum with these questions?

6mmbr.com forum
 
If your new at shooting you could try letting someone else shoot your rifle to see how they do. Maybe it’s the shooter. Your last group in the pictures looks like 4 of the 5 are there.
 
The barrel is a 1 in 9 26 inch 6 groove button rifled. Caliber is .260 Remington

I have had other people shoot the rifle as well. No luck..

I have 2-3 bullets to go through the same hole... and then get 2 fliers.

Identical loads with identical POA's have different POI's....
 
How about pull a George Costanza and do a 180 from where you are or think what you should use... Try other bullets (non match), non VV propellants, different primers, etc. For that kinda $$$, I would be very unhappy too, and would hope as the new barrel breaks in/new loads are tried things will get MUCH better.

Funny, but when I use BR primers, super prepped brass and match bullets in my custom .243, it shoots better with simple trimmed brass, "varmint" bullets, CCI mag primers and H414 ball powder/H4350.
 
Groups are spraying horizontal. Is it possibly that locking blocks from bolts are taking different ways.(****, I can´t write or speak in English).
Cases are sooty (loose chamber, but it is no reason for those bad groups), need more powder.
All screws tight and not to long. Scope kaputt. Try with an other scope.
I hope. that the rifle is not made in Russia (Baikal or Toz). New Sakos (=Beretta) makes only 3 shots in the same group. I hope too, that yor gun is not Sako 85. If so, shoot only 2-3 shots.
I can only write, your powder is best ones.
Kauko
PS; Also Sako / Tikka scope mounts & rings "opti locks" are pure ****. Screws too are ****
This ****, only sweaword I know. Taeche me please some others
 
Groups are spraying horizontal. Is it possibly that locking blocks from bolts are taking different ways.(****, I can´t write or speak in English).
Cases are sooty (loose chamber, but it is no reason for those bad groups), need more powder.
All screws tight and not to long. Scope kaputt. Try with an other scope.
I hope. that the rifle is not made in Russia (Baikal or Toz). New Sakos (=Beretta) makes only 3 shots in the same group. I hope too, that yor gun is not Sako 85. If so, shoot only 2-3 shots.
I can only write, your powder is best ones.
Kauko
PS; Also Sako / Tikka scope mounts & rings "opti locks" are pure ****. Screws too are ****
This ****, only sweaword I know. Taeche me please some others
Click to expand...

Actually some good information in there. But Swear words are not used at the THR forum. Child friendly site and not gentlemanly. You can use the :cuss: icon though.

I would measure a couple of virgins and then fire them in your chamber with witness marks for orientation purposes. Measure them with good instruments or take them to a tool and die shop or send them to a reputable shop. If they say the chamber is goobered then you have your answer. If the chamber passes then look to the bedding bolts or other loose attachments. If those are good then look at a different barrel.

Jim
 
I'd never heard of Robla Mil....so did a search and found this. http://benchrest.netfirms.com/Bore Cleaners.htm YIKES! That stuff EATS copper, for sure. And I thought Sweets 7.62 was strong stuff!

But, getting the copper out isn't all the work that needs done. Each shot you fire puts a layer of carbon over the copper. You need to get the carbon out, then the copper, then the carbon, ect. until the barrel is really clean.

Are you using some sort of carbon/powder fouling cleaner? And, most barrels need some sort of aggressive agitation to remove the carbon....like the bronze brush. At least a nylon brush to help loosen the fouling.

I'd think your barrel is your problem. Would advise a most thorough cleaning using the brush, and I'm going to bet that you get a LOT of blackish crud out of the tube. Your groups should improve afterwards. Good luck!
 
1. The scope is Leupold 6.5x20x50 warner rigs. I dont think its the scope. Checked it on my .300 win mag... just fine.
2. I use carbon remover. Ballistol/Hoppes.
3. The gun manufacturer explicitly told me not to use bronze/nylon brushes

The groups are actually spraying vertically ... its just the way that the pictures are taken that it appears horizontal. But they spray horizontally as well.

The VFG pellets are very very tight in the bore. I use 7mm pellets to remove carbon, and that is what was reccomended.

Everything is tight and to spec, as far as I can tell.
As for more powder... that is the max load in the manual.

In terms of bullets and powders:

Sierra match kings: 107, 120, 140, 142
Lapua Scenar: 108, 123, 139,
Sierra Game king: 12o gr, Federal Ammo
Powders: VV N-150, 160, 165, 540, 550, 560

Not other powders are available in France with load data. In any case the only other powders available are Tubal, with zero data for .260.:fire:


The groups are all the same: will get the first shot low or high. Next will be about an inch from the first one. third will more often than not go through hole 2. Fourth will go for a walk and the fifth will be close to #3 or at times in the same hole. Or the gun will shoot as though the largest group will win... :banghead::banghead:

Have tried all known accurate loads for the rifle, provided by others who own simillar weapons and the gunsmith.

Goes back to the manufacturer on tuesday.. since shops are closed in France on Monday's. And it will get fixed, that much the gun maker has assured me.
 
I skimmed this thread, but didn't see mention of targets. I would try a better target than a simple black dot.

A target with a horizontal and vertical line would reduce rifle cant and promote the same POA. Same POA would go a long way in trouble shooting this rifle (load vs. rifle, etc.).

Ed
 

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  • MidwayUSA%20Rifle%20target.pdf
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Have tried targets simmillar to the one posted... but from Targetz.com

have tried large shoot 'n see targets, small ones, paper ones... everything.

Have checked for scope cant using an alcohol level... string with a wieght dangling at one end... to ensure correct vertical.. etc.

the rifle in question is this one..

IMGP0025.jpg

I dont think the rifle is canting while shooting. The setup is as stable as a bench.
 
Autsch, gun like that and shoots like.......:cuss:.
Something terrible wrong. Builder must to be guilty. Everything with you Afy is ok.
 
I'm new here but have been reloading for over 45 years and the first glaring problem is the soot running down the sides of the cases.This indicates probably a lower than normal pressure to obturate the case. Normally, the proper pressures will allow the sooting to reach about half way down the neck of the case. You also could have a bad chamber(unlikely?). Or your brass has to be annealed to soften it.(work hardened?) You're probably not getting consistent ignition of the charges, shot to shot to prevent fliers. The loads that you indicated ARE listed max loads, but each rifle is an individual as most people know. Try different powder if possible. H414 or Win 760(they are identical in charge weight) are ideal as is the slightly faster burning Varget.

NCsmitty
 
NC Smitty

I get simillar sooting even with Factory Federal ammo.

I am in France and am limited pretty much to VV for powders with published data. Sierra and Lapua bullets. The brass in the picture is virgin RP and once fired RP. The cases have not been annealed.
Ditto results even with FC brass from the factory loads.

I get the same results irrespective of powder type. I can live with the sooting... but not the accuracy.

I have also tried a a variety of OAL's ranging from 2.78 - 2.913

The lands actually are at 2.935 best as I can figure out.

Sooting is consistent as is the inaccuracy.
 
My first guess is that you need a little more pressure in your load. I should qualify that I'm not a reloader, but from what I can tell from the pictures it looks like there's a lot of powder residue pretty far down the cartridge.

I'd be quicker to blame my reloading, overall, than a $6k rifle. Try it with some off-the-shelf ammo, if it's available, and see how it patterns: I'd wager "better".

After that, try a different bullet/powder/primer combination and see if it's different. If it isn't, then I'd suspect the gun builder; if it is, change your loads.

ETA: like the other guy recommends, something on the opposite side of the spectrum.
 
I did try it with the only available factory ammo in France... Federal Gamekings. I infact even bought all the available ammo in France... 400 cartridges at 3.5 euros a cartridge.

And get the same result with sooting. The pressure issue shouldnt occur with fireformed brass... i.e. the one on the left.


Also Each and every single charge is weighed. I use a Lyman DPS III to weigh my charges and cross weigh every fifth one on a RCBS 505. Hand prime, and use Redding dies. I also measure the COL on each cartridge witha FA Caliper to ensure variation is under .001 inches in COL

Just because the rifle cost an arm and a leg, doesnt mean it was put together correctly..
 
Just because the rifle cost an arm and a leg, doesnt mean it was put together correctly..
Click to expand...

Yep, and why a bargain priced Savage rifle that do much better only goes to reinforce your comment. Regardless of cause, I hope it gets much, MUCH better. Not much worse then having expectations crash that hard!
 
OK by the photos you appear to have a VERY low pressure situation. It's a long shot buy I feel you should slug or at least take a muzzle measurement of your bore. It's entirely possible to end up with a grossly out of spec bbl. Get a magnifier and inspect the crown very carefully. Recheck the torque on all fasteners.

Lastly try a dramatically different bullet, all the bullets you list feature a very similar profile. I've had rifles that would absolutely puke boattail bullets at the target but were sub MOA tack drivers with cheap-o flat based projectiles. You can go insane trying to force a rifle to shoot a bullet it doesn't like.
 
You cant have a low pressure situation with the max load in the manual...

I have tried 37- 39.5 gr with SMK 120
40.6 N160 with 139 Scenars
41.5 N160 with 140 SMK
etc etc etc...

Each and every load can not be low pressure. How can factory loaded Federal ammo be low pressure as well?

The rifle is brand new with under 300 shots through it.

I tend to shoot about 1 shot every 1-2 minutes, and about 15 minutes between groups.

The rifle was designed for target shooting, and the builder told me specifically to shoot boat tails.

If I had wanted to shoot minute of plate etc.. would have not bought a rifle that costs this much. Would have gotten a Savage and put a Braska on it and have been happy. I do expect this rifle to perform under 0.5 MOA for 5 shot groups. Other people who own simillar rifles have no problem doing it. Why should I settle for this?

have tried ladders, five at one level... et al. All cases soot and all groups suck. Someone I know has an identical rifle.

His groups are fine (1 hole @100 meters) , and my ammo does not soot in his rifle..

I have used his ammo in my rifle... and have crap all results.
 
You cant have a low pressure situation with the max load in the manual...
Click to expand...

OH YES YOU CAN! especially if your bore is overly large. You keep citing more supporting evidence to support this hypothesis.

have tried ladders, five at one level... et al. All cases soot and all groups suck.
Click to expand...

Someone I know has an identical rifle.

His groups are fine (1 hole @100 meters) , and my ammo does not soot in his rifle..
Click to expand...

I have used his ammo in my rifle... and have crap all results.
Click to expand...


You need to make certain your barrel's bore measures what it should. I suspect that your rifle got built with the WRONG and or substandard barrel
 
I agree....you need more powder...you are below the listed start loads.


VV- N160 start load for 120 grain bullets = 43 grains....max is 45 grains compressed.

A load I recommend trying is 47.5 grains of Reloder 19.
And 44.7 grains with the 140 grain bullets.

What manual are you loading from....Hornady's loads are not as weak as the loads you listed...What you are calling max loads are start loads.
 
Lastly try a dramatically different bullet, all the bullets you list feature a very similar profile. I've had rifles that would absolutely puke boattail bullets at the target but were sub MOA tack drivers with cheap-o flat based projectiles. You can go insane trying to force a rifle to shoot a bullet it doesn't like.
Click to expand...

Exactly the rationale of my previous George Costanza comment... Do the opposite of what seems correct in terms of bullets and primers.

I heard it all before I had my custom rifle started in 1983. You better get a 40x action, you better get a tight match chamber barrel from the top makers, you better use a composite/laminate stock..... Guess what. The long action Mark X action, coupled with an E.R. Shaw 1-in-10 bull barrel, stock trigger I adjusted, and Walnut stock that stated as a big "2x8" fitted to me and glass bedded (not pillared) shoots Sierra flat base 1510's using H4350 or H414 and Mag primers (oh the humanity) into .250" or smaller three shot 100 yards groups with boring regularity from simple sand bags and a straight 12x scope fired quickly. Tried BT match and regular BT bullets with BR-2 primers and a million different combo's from Sunday, but let the rifle tell me what it wanted and liked, and BT's it was not over all.

I don't even prep the brass much other than length check, and use a Dillon 550B for loading, or a worn out RS-2 press with a wobbly ram... Guess my rifle and targets don't care that I broke all the rules.:confused: Again, whatever the cause of what looks like terrible performance, I truly hope it gets corrected and you are happy with your rifle.
 
The gun manufacturer explicitly told me not to use bronze/nylon brushes
Click to expand...
Is this common advice for BR guns and match barrels? I know that poor cleaning technique can harm a barrel, especially with steel rods and such. But, what harm can a nylon brush on a coated rod do assuming it is used properly?
 
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