what the other side thinks about Heller:

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squinty

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From the wretched website/mailing list 'Gun Guys': http://www.gunguys.com/?p=3083


June 30th, 2008

After the Supreme Court's Ruling On the DC Handgun Ban, Gun Control Advocates Have Good Reason To Cheer Up

Last Thursday, the Supreme Court, headed by conservative justice Antonin Scalia who wrote the majority opinion, overturned the District of Columbia's handgun ban by asserting that the ban violated the Second Amendment. In doing so, Scalia reversed over 200 years of legal precedent and ignored the robust history of gun control since the founding of the country in order to justify the Court's new, dramatic, confusing and certainly misguided decision.

But something big got overlooked amidst the headlines.

The Supreme Court held that, in fact, gun control is Constitutional, and certainly viable. For example, even the conservative members of the Supreme Court, and Scalia himself, stated unequivocally that governments have the right and authority to regulate carrying concealed weapons, regulate gun sales, allow for the registration of guns, and even prohibit "dangerous and unusual weapons" -- which we read as an ability to ban to military-style assault weapons and powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles.

In short, the conservatives on the Supreme Court fully endorsed gun control as a concept and legal doctrine, and that no right is beyond sensible regulations.

Scalia wrote in his opinion:

"Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited...[It is not a] right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. …[The Court's] opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms," (p. 54-55).

By definition, the only way to screen "felons" and the "mentally ill" is to enact common sense measures such as universal background checks, waiting periods, licensing gun owners and other sensible provisions that do not, according to Justice Scalia, violate anyone's Second Amendment right.

What does this mean? It means that gun control advocates have very good reasons to feel optimistic. In fact, the conservatives on the Supreme Court may well have sucker-punched the gun lobby without even realizing it.

By asserting that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms -- which we hope one day gets reversed and put back in its proper reading of the Second Amendment -- and holding that gun control won't lead to a slippery slope of confiscating all guns, the Supreme Court completely eviscerated the NRA's two main pillars for its fundraising operations.

In other words, it is entirely possible that all of the wind has been taken out of the gun lobby's sails. What "fear card" can the gun lobby possibly play anymore?

For the short term, however, the gun lobby is feeling empowered, and already targeting Chicago's own handgun ban which Mayor Daley has sworn to fight for. Although it might be highly optimistic to think so, the gun issue "could" evolve from the divisive political debate into a new phase of problem solving and what to do about the approximately 30,000 gun deaths and tens of thousands of Americans wounded each year.

There is no question that the Supreme Court violated its own standards by ignoring longstanding precedent in stripping DC of its handgun ban. And legal experts have rightfully chastised Justice Scalia's legal doctrine of "originalism" as a sham in light of his parsing of words and ignoring his own theory that Courts should not create laws and invent new legal interpretations, which is exactly what Justice Scalia did.
 
June 30th, 2008

After the Supreme Court's Ruling On the DC Handgun Ban, Gun Control Advocates Have Good Reason To Cheer Up

Last Thursday, the Supreme Court, headed by conservative justice Antonin Scalia who wrote the majority opinion, overturned the District of Columbia's handgun ban by asserting that the ban violated the Second Amendment. In doing so, Scalia reversed over 200 years of legal precedent and ignored the robust history of gun control since the founding of the country in order to justify the Court's new, dramatic, confusing and certainly misguided decision.

But something big got overlooked amidst the headlines.

The Supreme Court held that, in fact, gun control is Constitutional, and certainly viable. For example, even the conservative members of the Supreme Court, and Scalia himself, stated unequivocally that governments have the right and authority to regulate carrying concealed weapons, regulate gun sales, allow for the registration of guns, and even prohibit "dangerous and unusual weapons" -- which we read as an ability to ban to military-style assault weapons and powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles.

In short, the conservatives on the Supreme Court fully endorsed gun control as a concept and legal doctrine, and that no right is beyond sensible regulations.

Scalia wrote in his opinion:

"Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited...[It is not a] right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose. …[The Court's] opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms," (p. 54-55).

By definition, the only way to screen "felons" and the "mentally ill" is to enact common sense measures such as universal background checks, waiting periods, licensing gun owners and other sensible provisions that do not, according to Justice Scalia, violate anyone's Second Amendment right.

What does this mean? It means that gun control advocates have very good reasons to feel optimistic. In fact, the conservatives on the Supreme Court may well have sucker-punched the gun lobby without even realizing it.

By asserting that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms -- which we hope one day gets reversed and put back in its proper reading of the Second Amendment -- and holding that gun control won't lead to a slippery slope of confiscating all guns, the Supreme Court completely eviscerated the NRA's two main pillars for its fundraising operations.

In other words, it is entirely possible that all of the wind has been taken out of the gun lobby's sails. What "fear card" can the gun lobby possibly play anymore?

For the short term, however, the gun lobby is feeling empowered, and already targeting Chicago's own handgun ban which Mayor Daley has sworn to fight for. Although it might be highly optimistic to think so, the gun issue "could" evolve from the divisive political debate into a new phase of problem solving and what to do about the approximately 30,000 gun deaths and tens of thousands of Americans wounded each year.

There is no question that the Supreme Court violated its own standards by ignoring longstanding precedent in stripping DC of its handgun ban. And legal experts have rightfully chastised Justice Scalia's legal doctrine of "originalism" as a sham in light of his parsing of words and ignoring his own theory that Courts should not create laws and invent new legal interpretations, which is exactly what Justice Scalia did.





And so it begins.





.
 
200 years of legal precedent
That's a lie. The courts wouldn't touch this issue until Heller.
robust history of gun control since the founding of the country
Oh, what? You mean like Redeemer governments in the South? Great example, *********.
Yeah, I can't say what came to mind on a family site.
The Supreme Court held that, in fact, gun control is Constitutional, and certainly viable. For example, even the conservative members of the Supreme Court, and Scalia himself, stated unequivocally that governments have the right and authority to regulate carrying concealed weapons, regulate gun sales, allow for the registration of guns, and even prohibit "dangerous and unusual weapons" -- which we read as an ability to ban to military-style assault weapons and powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles.

In short, the conservatives on the Supreme Court fully endorsed gun control as a concept and legal doctrine, and that no right is beyond sensible regulations.
What, can't get over the fact that you lost?
"And the Red Sox have won the World Series!!!"
"Well, you know, they actually didn't. Because they won the Series and now have broken the curse of the Great Bambino, they will now fade into obscurity, having no claim to fame or draw for fans as a clan of underdogs. You see!? it was our plan all along, bwahahahahahahaha!!!"
"Ummm... you need help."
[It is not a] right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose.
Why don't you just make up the whole verdict?

I'm not even going further.
I need to celebrate Heller some more.
 
Man, some folks have a serious problem with reading comprehension.

If they don't find a way to spin it their direction the donations stop flowing in and that would be VERY bad.

Josh Sugarman might have to get a real job or something. Maybe open a gunstore in DC with his FFL.....
 
Nolo said:
Quote:
200 years of legal precedent


That's a lie. The courts wouldn't touch this issue until heller.

There is a book by attorneys Korwin, Halbrook and Kopel titled SUPREME COURT GUN CASES which indicate the high court has opined on the second amendment in 92 cases throughout this nation's history, usually in the dicta (opinion) and have assessed it as an individual right.
According to the book, the "collective right" nonsense dates back to 1943, based on a misconstruction, which has (as we know) persisted until recently.
 
Man, some folks have a serious problem with reading comprehension.
Amen

They seriously couldn't have read the opinion. The following quote is anything but an "unequivocal" affirmation of the authority to require licensing/registration.
pg. 125 said:
...I, like the majority, see no need to address the constitutionality of the licensing requirement.
 
Funny but some of the things I have read here concerning if WE lost the decision I read on blogs and commentary from the antis.

There is one on the Huffington post that really got me. He said the SCOTUS got it wrong and now has lost all confidence of the people. Based on polls WE know he has that backwards but I heard the same sentiment threatened here.

I guess firearms are just like logic. Dangerous when used incorrectly.
 
By asserting that there is an individual right to keep and bear arms -- which we hope one day gets reversed and put back in its proper reading of the Second Amendment -- and holding that gun control won't lead to a slippery slope of confiscating all guns, the Supreme Court completely eviscerated the NRA's two main pillars for its fundraising operations.

In other words, it is entirely possible that all of the wind has been taken out of the gun lobby's sails. What "fear card" can the gun lobby possibly play anymore?

For the short term, however, the gun lobby is feeling empowered, and already targeting Chicago's own handgun ban which Mayor Daley has sworn to fight for. Although it might be highly optimistic to think so, the gun issue "could" evolve from the divisive political debate into a new phase of problem solving and what to do about the approximately 30,000 gun deaths and tens of thousands of Americans wounded each year.

There is no question that the Supreme Court violated its own standards by ignoring longstanding precedent in stripping DC of its handgun ban. And legal experts have rightfully chastised Justice Scalia's legal doctrine of "originalism" as a sham in light of his parsing of words and ignoring his own theory that Courts should not create laws and invent new legal interpretations, which is exactly what Justice Scalia did.

This author is a knot head. First, he claims a victory for gun controllers and surmises how they might continue to fight to make it ever harder for gun owners to keep and bear arms. Then he turns right around and claims that the NRA has lost its fund raising pillars. I'm going to give even more money to the NRA, GOA, CCKBRA, SAF, etc. Cripes, we're now on the offensive. Let's rock and roll. Let's lock and load. Party on Dudes!

Secondly, he berates Scalia for ignoring precedent, but earlier has expressed his wishes that someday the Heller decision would be overturned. What a rube. This guy is not to be taken seriously, other than for the fact that he is an enemy combatant in the war on guns. We need to continue to defeat him and his ilk at every opportunity. Scalia just provided us a "bunker buster bomb", figuratively speaking.

The walls have been breached in D.C., and Wilmette, IL. While these are not total victories as of yet, we have them under siege. Chicago, NYC and San Francisco will soon be attacked by our forces as well. The anti's are running scared right now. It's as if someone told them that the Mongels and Ghengis Khan were marching towards their cities. Or maybe the Vikings. (being from Minnesota, as I am).

Whatever the case, I can sense fear in their hearts and minds. Their march to their own perceived utopia has been seriously disrupted. Daley says he'll fight. Maybe so. Maybe he'll lose. Hopefully, he will lose.
 
I guess firearms are just like logic. Dangerous when used incorrectly.

I agree heartily. The problem is that the antis don't know how to use either. :neener:
 
which we read as an ability to ban to military-style assault weapons and powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles.

I wonder if they realize that 1.) MILLIONS of SKS rifles, AK rifles and AR-15 rifles (clones, knock offs and so forth) have been manufactured and purchased by the American populace. So they are in fact quite common.

.50 caliber sniper files... Well, I don't know about those, but if the cops, the military and citizens have them, how can you say that they are unusual and since the body count attributed to them is EXCEEDINGLY low (if not 0) then how can you say they are dangerous...

usmarine0352_2005 said:
And so it begins.

"This world is an uncertain realm, filled with danger. Honor underminded by the pursuit of power, freedom sacrificed when the weak are oppressed by the strong. But there are those who oppose these powerful forces, who dedicate their lives to truth, honor, and freedom. These men are known as Musketeers. Rise, D'Artagnan, and join them." Quoted from the Three Musketeers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108333/quotes - King Louis

I think we have always been fighting it amigo. This is just the latest salvo in the march to armageddon.
 
which we read as an ability to ban to military-style assault weapons and powerful .50 caliber sniper rifles.

I wonder if they realize that 1.) MILLIONS of SKS rifles, AK rifles and AR-15 rifles (clones, knock offs and so forth) have been manufactured and purchased by the American populace. So they are in fact quite common.

.50 caliber sniper files... Well, I don't know about those, but if the cops, the military and citizens have them, how can you say that they are unusual and since the body count attributed to them is EXCEEDINGLY low (if not 0) then how can you say they are dangerous...


Originally Posted by usmarine0352_2005
And so it begins.

"This world is an uncertain realm, filled with danger. Honor underminded by the pursuit of power, freedom sacrificed when the weak are oppressed by the strong. But there are those who oppose these powerful forces, who dedicate their lives to truth, honor, and freedom. These men are known as Musketeers. Rise, D'Artagnan, and join them." Quoted from the Three Musketeers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108333/quotes - King Louis

I think we have always been fighting it amigo. This is just the latest salvo in the march to armageddon.


Ah my friend, the "New Battle" begins in the never-ending war.


:eek:
 
"They are all the same. My point is the money dries up and they are all out of jobs and causes."

The problem is their money comes from large single sources, the Joyce Foundation, George Soros etc.

Their "membership revenue" is already dried up and gone after the Million Mom March folded up.

As long as those idealogues still believe in gun control, and they do, they will have all the funding they need to spew their misinformation.

I suspect, based on their immediate follow up press releases, they are going back to using the one or two lines in the entire 100 plus page opinion where Scalia and the majority said "some regulation is possible, e.g. no criminal or mentally unstable people" and they are going to spend the next decade trying to convince America that anyone that wants to own a gun must, by definition, be unstable.

It's going to be a political spin game now and we can't let up for a minute on the lawsuits or the support for our spokespeople whether that's the NRA, GOA or any other pro rights group.

Oh, FWIW, the ACLU is still ignoring the 2nd amendment so I wouldn't count on them getting involved in a positive way either. Hypocrites!

Just like their total focus in the past was on that Militia prefatory clause and they ignored the rest of the amendment. They will ignore the major findings and focus all their time and attention, including their media contacts, on the one or two lines that suit their cause.
 
Don't be thier speaking platform.

The truth is the antis don't know exactly what to make of the ruling just yet. They are creating many different often conflicting arguments and seeing which ones gain traction and are repeated.

For example Daley was very scared after the ruling, you can see that with his video taped tirade. He was very sure he just lost his gun control.
Yet after Fenty essentialy showed he was not going to abide by the ruling, and was interpreting it as allowing everything except a ban on all handguns, suddenly Chicago is more confident in some of thier restrictions.
Each time an anti stands up and says..well it really means ______ which lets us do as we want, more antis gain confidence in interpreting it that way.

Those anti positions and ideas that are repeated enough will be seen as having a position they can hold and will be thier new official position.

We all know they want to ban as many as possible and make aquiring and owning firearms as difficult as possible. They know they can't achieve it all at once so they learn what the population is vulnerable to at the time, and what segments of the gun crowd can be seperated from the rest and conquered.

If enough people throw an idea they mention around, it shows it has enough appeal or 'logic' at least to some people that it can be argued in new legislation and in court.

What we really need to do is show people what we think it means, and get that upheld in the court. Rather than focus on what some of them think it means and watch while thier ideas gain footholds in public opinion and get backed by a court ruling.

We have the momentum, giving them thier speaking platforms and pointing others in thier direction removes some of that momentum.
 
Gentlemen beware ...

The other side has amassed $500 Million dollars for Obama who will in addition try to seem more 'centrist' in order to get more votes. This dribble by the antis will become a torrent in the mass media blitz he can afford with all that $$$. If he wins, Heller may be the last decent decision we get out of the SCOTUS in our lifetimes once B. Hussein Obama appoints one more liberal judge to it. :fire:
 
More like the "anti gun guys".

Never knew somone could fathom spending their time trying to reduce freedom.

They can push all they want, hopefully this is the beginning of a end to people like them.
 
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