Simplicity.

I have carried a knife daily for many years now, but it has been only fairly recently that I have actually become interested in them. In this, the internet has been a boon.

I have never been a fan of wild, pointless design, but I do admit that I enjoy stuff that's different. A good example is that hatchet that new member Harlan Whitman posted a day or two ago. Probably not particularly superior as compared to any other hatchet, but I like it. As I said in that thread, it's different without being goofy. Put another way, it's different while still being useful.

At the same time, classic designs are great too. I find that I have an open mind towards it all, and I either like it or I don't. For whatever reason, there is very little gray area with me when it comes to knives.

The idea of serrations is at least as old as a typical serrated steak knife. So Sal or someone else at Spyderco said "hey" what if we incorporate them into a working knife? And so the 'spydie edge' was born. Now, that's not a bad thing and it does offer superior cutting on rope (notice I didn't say twine or string...) and other things that benefit from a sawing type of cut. Not only that, you have the added advantage of a larger (longer?) cutting surface which due to it's design will remain useable longer than a traditional non-serrated edge. The disadvantage is that there's an art to sharpening it that requires a totally different set of tools (stones or rods...) and skills than those required to maintain a standard edge. I will also point out that serrations make it impossible to work up close to the hilt\joint where many traditional cutting chores are best handled. That's a subject for another day though.

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Two things:
The "art" to sharpening serrations isn't all that difficult or different, really, from plain edges. If you know how, and more importantly the why, to sharpen a straight edge the way you do, a serrated edge isn't all that much more difficult. And the tools needed aren't necessarily different. For the most part these days, I use some triangular Spyderco Sharpmaker stones. Not an actual Spyderco Sharpmaker, mind you. Just the stones, freehand. They're compact, don't wear out, and do an effective job on plain or serrated edges. When I'm lazy, I just use a small diamond rod.

Cutting near the hilt with serrations isn't terribly impaired, IMO. YMMV.

Where The Tourist's comment comes in is right here:

You have at least two generations of youngsters who flat out cannot sharpen a standard edge knife properly. Worse, most of them could care less whether they can or not because they've bought into our throw-away society mentality. Along comes the 'Sypdie-Edge' and wow! This thing cuts forever dude! Well, right up to the point that it doesn't that is... So what happens? Well it's simple-you just go and buy another knife with that serrated edge and the problem is solved!

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If buying another knife is indeed a viable solution, then the problem is solved. Who cares if it's some kind of "throw away society mentality"? I probably generate more trash than any of my ancestors. Possibly all of them combined. I'm also more prosperous than any of them, in real terms. Even the ones who prospered in their times. The kind of relative wealth I have (and we all have in the modern world) is the cause, and result of the throw away society. People throw away things because they can afford to. This is a signal of great advance in human prosperity.

I guess I should add here, that it isn't just 'younger' people who have fallen into this trap.

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True. But it cuts across lots of areas. I never learned how to use a slide rule. And I've forgotten how to do most calculations because I have a calculator. Is this really some kind of step backward? Not in my view.

Now, the serrated edge has a definate purpose and use in the grand scheme of things that need to be cut. First responders, police, military, sailors, and others who deal in webbing, rope, and other similar materials are very much aided by this type of edge. However, the wood worker, skinner, tinkerer, and similar folk are at a disadvantage with such an edge because it just isn't efficient at cutting those types of materials.

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The really neat thing about the market is that the wood worker, skinner, tinkerer, and similar folk don't have to use a serrated blade if they don't feel like it. There has to be more kinds of knives on the shelves than ever before. The existence of serrated blades doesn't mean that they must be used by folks who don't like them.

I have no desire to make this a protracted "discussion" as "it is what it is", but I'll sum up with comments below...

Two things:
The "art" to sharpening serrations isn't all that difficult or different, really, from plain edges. If you know how, and more importantly the why, to sharpen a straight edge the way you do, a serrated edge isn't all that much more difficult.

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The context of the discussion that I commented on is that many people lack the basic skills to sharpen a knife which is why a serrated edge is attractive to them. I have no problem sharpening either type of edge. However, MOST people I know that even bother to carry a knife nowadays cannot sharpen either type of edge which is why I find myself being asked "hey can you sharpen this for me?" all the time.

And the tools needed aren't necessarily different. For the most part these days, I use some triangular Spyderco Sharpmaker stones. Not an actual Spyderco Sharpmaker, mind you.

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Well, in my experience there are at least three major profiles of serrations that I've come across and they are all different (compare Benchmade, Spyderco, and Gerber for starters). None of them could be properly re-sharpened or re-profiled using only one size and angled stone. The best tool I have found for this is a DMT Serrated Edge Sharpener which is a pointed conical design that fits most (but not all) of the serrations I've come across. Also, serrations must be done free hand (as far as I know-I've never seen an angle guide available publically for them) which adds to the "art" of sharpening them properly because it takes away the 'crutch' if you will of using an angle guide. So not only is the technique different, but the tools are specialized if you really want it done right without changing the original serration to fit the profile of the stone you are using. I prefer to fit the tool to the edge and not make the edge fit the tool.

Cutting near the hilt with serrations isn't terribly impaired, IMO. YMMV.

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Well, maybe we just cut different things then. I know for sure that making something as simple as a pointed stick for my granddaughter to roast marshmallows with is much more 'refined' using a plain edge than a serrated edge which (as it is designed by the way) 'grabs' and tears vs. slices.

Now, as to whether or not we can justify a "throw away society" I'll leave that to the social engineers to meditate on. I just don't understand a mentality that takes something valuable (things do still have value don't they?) and tosses it away because someone is too ignorant, arrogant, or lazy to take care of it. And what does any of that have to do with how wealthy someone is? You may not agree with that, and that's fine, but I still don't have to like it or tolerate it in those I'm responsible to teach and mentor. Hold on to your hat for this one-I don't think a person should carry a blade, firearm, or even a shovel, if they don't have enough sense to find out how to maintain it properly first.

And here we find the second crux of the matter. It is not progress and innovation that is the problem. The problem is the loss of the most basic skills of human self relience. Believe it or not there are people in the world who not only cannot sharpen a knife, but cannot even tell the difference between an adjustable wrench and a pair of 'channel locks'. Now, no one is going to fret the transition from slide rule to calculator because they in esscence are the same tool. But so far as I know, no one has made a tool to replace a pair of channel locks. And without the knowledge of what the heck they even are, how can one begin to address the problems that a simple pair of channel locks solve (like "gee, how do I turn this?). This has led us to a point in our history where we are teaching our children to solve problems with a telephone and a credit card and not their brains. "Daddy, this knife won't cut!!!!! boo-hoo" "Darling, here go buy another one!" "Thank you daddy!"

No one needs to justify their choice in blade to anyone-period. I could care less what anybody buys or carries. But that doesn't change the fact that a whole lotta people are buying based on convenience and marketing without honest regard to intended use or need.

Oh well, back to the dog house....

Take care, and may all your blades be sharp!

I just have to throw this out there because I actaully have had my designs called overdone and wild, but the truth is that I hunt and research through history looking for inspiration. Such as this pre 1850's Sudanese knife There is no all in one knife - thank the lord - how boring would that be. Wild n Crazy or good ole hickory you can find a place for it.

My two cents

MOST people I know that even bother to carry a knife nowadays cannot sharpen either type of edge which is why I find myself being asked "hey can you sharpen this for me?" all the time.

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So what? If you are annoyed, refuse. If you you enjoy the task, then do it.

Well, in my experience there are at least three major profiles of serrations that I've come across and they are all different (compare Benchmade, Spyderco, and Gerber for starters). None of them could be properly re-sharpened or re-profiled using only one size and angled stone.

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I'll disagree with you on this. I can easily sharpen a wide variety of serrations using the triangular stones, including the three you mention. There are a few companies that use more specialized style serration patters, but I own none of them.

No one needs to justify their choice in blade to anyone-period. I could care less what anybody buys or carries. But that doesn't change the fact that a whole lotta people are buying based on convenience and marketing without honest regard to intended use or need.

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For someone who doesn't care what other people use or buy, you spend a lot of effort explaining that you really do care.

My guess is that most folks in the world can survive quite well using fairly dull knives, and not really knowing the difference between channel locks and adjustable wrenches. The reason is as old as human civilization itself. Humans for the most part are not self reliant creatures, but rather, beings who depend on the abilities of others to survive and thrive. In the human world, self reliance translates into being able to trade your skills for the goods and services of others.

You may find it honorable to buy one xacto blade and sharpen it in order to maximize it's value. The rest of the world is perfectly content to just buy them by the gross and toss them as soon as they don't cut. Because we're wealthy enough and our time is too valuable. As the saying goes, one man's trash is another's treasure. Just don't wag your finger at me because you feel my garbage is worth more than I've deemed.

You know, Carl - you bring up some very good points.

Being on the cusp of 60 (with the last 14 years borrowed after the first heart attack), I see things a bit differently than I did in the first 40 or so years. Not limited to knives 'n' guns.

Never owned a cell-phone, never will. Have a love-hate relationship with the 'Net, this keyboard and all computers. (the part you're seein' must be the love part, 'cause I like these forums and I'm smiling as I type this). In short, I don't hate technology, but I do hate the way people allow it to run their lives to the extent of being less human.

As for knives and guns...

I've had a lot of them over the years. Recently, I sold off all my automatics and replaced the auto matic handguns with wheel guns and the autoloading rifles with lever guns. Right now the gun safe has only lever action rifles, a pump shotgun (Old 870 WM), and a couple of SA revolvers - all in old, reliable calibers.

A knife should be comfortable to carry, whether folding or fixed blade, fit the hand well, and stay sharp enough to field dress the game you're after, or help you along your trail, wherever you might be.

Frankly, what they look like isn't of much importance. But looking at all the advertising that companies put out to get folks to fall in love with how things look, I guess maybe some of us here are just real, live dinosaurs, eh?

Keep on keepin' on.


gg

Just don't wag your finger at me because you feel my garbage is worth more than I've deemed.

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Shecky, I've been wagging my fingers a long time...

Don't take it personally...

Has the knife world gone over the top in a quest to artificially stimulate sales, even to the extent of marketing almost useless designed knives?

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I don't believe so. To end upon the ultimate design one does not merely conjure it from thin air. It takes different design attempts, different materials and so forth along a path whose eventual end is perfection. Each company has different standards of this perfection so each takes a different path, which means we end up with thousands of different styles. This is nothing new.

There is an image floating around the net of blade patterns offered by a company in the early 1900s. It has no less than 115 different blade shapes and styles that it offers for sale in small slip-joint folders.

The only reason it seems like there would be "too much" variety today is that there are more people around to buy knives, more taste preferences and so we have a greater total number of knives produced than at any time in history prior. This is not a bad thing.

There is nothing wrong with preferring the older styles and designs (labeled "classic" as a selling method), the point is that one should not denigrate the new and different merely because they are new and different.

It's a reactionary thought process.

The only part of this business I would denigrate is the sales driven idea that there are knives (or cars or TVs or socks) that we "must have."

Why is it that Japanese food preparation knives haven't changed? Why is it that you can still buy a Green River knife that hasn't changed? Why is it that Buck's most popular knife was invented around 1963?

Heck, my motorcycle is the direct descendant of the 1936 model. Except for a clinically insane driver on a V-Max or a Hayabusa, I'm about the fastest thing on the highway.

Old does not mean 'bad.'

How old is an ulu? Close to 800 or 1,000 years old. And it works just fine.

Let's not make this *thread* more complicated than *it* need be either:

Has the knife world gone over the top in a quest to artificially stimulate sales, even to the extent of marketing almost useless designed knives?

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YES

http://www.888knivesrus.com/c=1xEXV...ct/51006-999/511_CUB_MASTERS_MODEL_KNIFE.html

Next question!

World wide, exept for Japan, the blade developed into a pretty strait forward thing of simple design.

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How about the Indonesian/SEAsian Kris daggers and swords? The complete opposite of 'simple" and yet a commonly used design for 1000 years?

The common 'wavy' blade versions could also be the predecessor of our modern-day serrated blade design.

Chico,

An old boss once shared with me-

There are three factors that determine the price of all goods and services; greed, greed, and greed.


Why?
Simple, folks are greedy and want money. IF folks ain't spending money, they will use creative marketing to get folks to spend money.

For umpteen years, we have managed to do just fine with Flat and Phillips heads to hold items together. Allen screws fit a niche a bit better, especially for counter sunk heads.

Now we "have to have" Torx and this Nuke head to hold a knife together ?
Which of course means one "has to have" special tool to fit them?
I do not think so!

Proprietary things drives folks nuts! The same folks that cuss a computer company for being Proprietary with software, will buy this complicated stuff needing special tools.

The open source folks buy the same knives, and make fun of proprietary computer users.


Simple-
Browning designed the 1911, and I do mean designed it.
The grip screw is a Flat and one can use a 45ACP ctg to remove a stock screw.
Spent ctg will also work for a recoil guide plug.
The 1911 is a tool unto itself...

So for umpteen years we had Flat heads used on knives and guns, and now we "have to have" FLGR, Duck Butts, Fuzzy Dice, Torx and Nukes!


Ninety percent of all fishing equipment is designed to catch fisher-person's wallets- not fish. -anon


And folks wonder why, I still like using a pocket knife , free hand sharpening, using a match to light a smoke, sticking a glass jar outside with tea bags to make tea ( sun tea)....

Basically society is nuts and there ain't many of us sane folks left!

(insert my best Renfield snicker here...)

hehehehehehehehehe.....

Master....

What should we do now?

heheheheheheheheheh.....

Carl Levitian said:

I feel the nuts have gained control of the assylum.

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You realize that I do, in fact, have papers.

I've seen The Mendota State Hospital.

If I and my fellows nuts were to gain control of anything it would be The Maple Bluff Country Club.

Having said that, I feel my opinion on knives and their supposed innovations is still a sound commentary.

You realize that I do, in fact, have papers.

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Well you are ahead of me, I am still using Montgomery Ward and Sears Roebuck catalogs in the outhouse....

Having said that, I feel my opinion on knives and their supposed innovations is still a sound commentary

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^THAT my friend is exactly the reason we have been classified thusly!

hehehehehehehheheh.....

If you look at my knives (both the ones I carry and make) you will see that I prefer "simpler" knives. I believe in form following function! If it doesn't work, get rid of it.

I do agree that some new designs are truely a bunch of smoke and mirrors! Its a knife, its not for de-animating.... blah blah blah.

With that said I have to disagree to some extent.

Serrations DO have their place. They are not just for "idiots" that can't sharpen their knives! Serrations are a MUCH more aggressive cutting edge. Plain and simple. They don't slide off of what you are cutting. They bite and bite deep. I find many people can even figure out how to sharpen them...

Recurves... these are not a new idea. Take a look at a Greek Kopis. The recurve also helps a blade bite on the draw cut. It is possible for the average guy to figure out how to sharpen these also...

The Americanized tanto point can also be useful. Its not my favorite type of blade, but if made nice and thin they cut well and that lower point is pretty useful.

Want really out of the box... take a look at the Razel design by the Graham Brothers. Now that is a design that is WAY out there. Looks like it wouldn't work for crap... try it. It works GREAT!


Tom

OK, I'm sorry, but I like torx screws. After you've stripped a couple hex, then you'll like them too. Oh, well I should say they're an improvement over hex/allen, but nevertheless still unnecessary when you already have standard and phillips. Standard hex/allen was a step backward, but torx is a step forward, back to where we USED TO be with phillips.

I used to like serrations, until I tried to sharpen them - takes days rather than minutes. If you know how to sharpen and do, then serrations are not worth the hassle. If you have someone else sharpen for you, then arguably they are.

Premium,

I feel your pain, but got over it when I discovered the DMT type of 'spike' sharpener AND learned not to go for a scapel-sharp edge on those little serration edges.

I have found that it's better if they are only sharpened to say "medium" (for lack of a better word) rather than being polished smooth. They bite real good and it only takes a few minutes per knife to touch them up.

Also, be careful with the backside of the serrated area. You only want to do a bit of stropping to take off the burrs on the back side.

The key is not to go overboard with it...

btw-I really appreciate torx screws as well

"There is nothing new under the sun."

That's from Ecclesiastes. Historians say it was written around 250 BC.

I bet even back then artisans knew they could make more money by selling you the same thing twice..

I don't care for Torx or Nuke , or any of these Mork&Mindy screws.

I can fix a flat, or phillips with a screw-head file.
I like these phillips that will take a flat screwdriver. I have made my share of flat screws from scratch and fixed ones that needed fixing.

Screw head files are neat!!
Then again I like /prefer two lanyard holes ,and even three on some knives.

Tom and Don know why.
(If they forgot I am sure I will get a PM from them)

Arg! I needed a Torx the other day just to replace a brake light in the Dodge - of course all the Torx wrenchs were in the shop. Grrr. Walk all the way to shop, grab 5 different sizes, walk back to garage and fix.

"My wife says I'm simple (minded), and I make simple knives.