Am I Free to Leave????

Status
Not open for further replies.
But please don't whine when you get manhandled. The words "you can't do that' I know my rights" is the biggest 1 liner on the street.
Click to expand...
I am extremely well-versed in our state's law as it pertains to open carry (OC). Furthermore, I always carry a concealed digital voice recorder when I OC. If a cop tries to "manhandle" me, gets badge heavy, or illegally detains me for OC'ing, it will be the cop's Unlucky Day™. When all is said and done, there will either be a written reprimand in the LEO's personnel file, or the LEO will be fired, or I'll be walking away with a significant amount of cash. All of these things have happened to people who have open-carried. Read the stories on www.opencarry.org for more info.

As just one example out of many, a city police officer was verbally abusive toward a person who had the nerve to open-carry a handgun in Willowick, Ohio a couple months ago. Fortunately this person had a digital voice recorder on him. :) OFCC got involved (of which I am also a member), had a few meetings with the police chief and law director, and today the officer has a letter of reprimand in his file.
 
Molon Labe

I do not know how O/C works in Washington, I "believe" for our discussion we were discussing CPL, I will check out the site.

I "think" you are still miss understanding my point. Every day 100s? of folks suffer a unlawful event by our justice system, some of them are law enforcement.
I am sharing with you what was pounded in our heads as undercover officers, "just comply, and do it right now" was how U/C's who forgot to wear the color of the day, or to hang their shield survive contact with first responders. It does work, as I said you do as you wish, but remember you have to survive the contact with the first responder to collect in court!
 
Yes I am 15, I do not have a ccw permit but my dad does. He does not carry though :(. I am not a liar of any kind nor do I carry concealed but plan to OC once 18 and ccw once 21. Any questions?????
 
also about the "being creative" thing I was looking for a way to legally carry. But I couldn't and decided not to. I am interested in the law but can't find anything.
 
I am unsure but say that the following happens:

Your at the store and your guns printing and an LEO notices and stops to talk. If they ask to search you and whatnot what are your legal rights, what should you do? And please don't say just say ok and have them search becuase I am just curious about the question.

Thanks
Click to expand...

I just had a conversation last week with a retired officer who's house I was working in. We got to talking about "police these days" etc..
Anyway, I told him that I always say to people "If they ask to search you, it means they don't have the legal right to search. If they had the legal right, they would just do it without asking." He said that that is exactly right.
If they ask, they are trying to get you to consent to give up your rights. Always say no. If they try to bargain, and sway you, tell them it is not anything to do with the particular situation, but you have a personal policy of never giving up your rights voluntarily. Make that policy right now, and stick to it.
And that has nothing to do with any state law, it's the 4th amendment of the constitution.
 
After 20+ years on the street in law enforcement, I am one of those guys, I was trying to keep you from being hurt or worse.

I am sharing with you what was pounded in our heads as undercover officers, "just comply, and do it right now"
Click to expand...


ahhhh, now i see where the attitude comes from. i'm well aware that many cops are taught that what they say is the law and anyone that doesn't comply, even with and unlawful order, can be detained, harassed, etc. well, that don't fly with me. thanks for the concern, but i think i'll stick with my rights, following the law, but not being a sheep. its worked for me for quite a while. i think it will continue to work.

further, i only have to have my permit on me when i'm carrying concealed, or if i have a loaded gun in a vehicle. if i'm open carrying, i don't have to have it, or even ID on me for that matter. that may be your local law, but WA law is not the same.

Bobby
 
I actually heard an interesting story the other day about how someone who was leagally OCing and was asked for a search. He agreed and when they searched they found a knife in his pocket for work. In that state you are not allowed to conceal knives and he did not have a ccw permit. They arrested him. That's why I asked.
 
Bobarino

I am confused, I thought the whole discussion is about being armed, being concealed and allowing another to identify you have a firearm! That is the original posters issue. You said "everything a cop demands, such as showing ID if open carrying or even a CWP". I am addressing a man with a gun concealed, in a public place, and your submitting to a CPL (not CWP) check as required, and that you comply with commands concerning SAFETY.

I do not give a damm about anything else! I do not care about your political statement about open carry, I do not care about illegal or legal evidence search, It's all about the gun that I have already seen.

Finally, if you choose to be casual about your CPL carry or Open Carry and cause other citizens to fear for there lives or feel threatened then not only do you get to submit, you get a free ride to the local lockup, have fun with that!
 
SB,

i understand what you're saying, and i would show a CWP if i printed and a cop saw it. thats complying with a LAWFUL order. i would do nothing more however. that is all i'm legally required to do. he can ask me to do anything he wants, and i'll politely refuse. if he demands anything, i'll politely refuse again and ask if im being detained. if no, off i go. if yes, he's going to get punished in one way or another for detaining without RAS. i'm not going to get into a fight with the cop. i'm not that stupid. if the cop got rough, i'd have no choice but to let him though i'd be well within my rights to resist. still, that would be dumb. it will get settled in the courts, both criminal and civil when i own the cop's house.

my big problem lies in this:

Peace officers do not have a crystal ball to know the outcome of this encounter, to know your intent. Why would you not do as they wish and risk thru non-compliance a heightening of tension?

The point is for all of us to survive, try "to the best of your ability to comply" with peace officer commands, move slowly and deliberately. Understand that they will feed off of your behavior and response. After that if you have been injured, take remedy with the legal system.
Click to expand...

if i'm open carrying, i don't have to give anything to the officer except for name and address, verbally. if he demands ID, a CWP or that i do jumping jacks, i'm NOT going to comply. this is not escalating anything. this is me, NOT giving up my rights when i don't have to. the officer has no RAS to detain me, and i'll wish him/her a safe shift and be on my merry way. cops don't get to make the law up on the spot. they get to enforce the laws that already exist. in all actuality, the cop should be looking out for my right to carry. protect and serve ring a bell? who's protecting my rights as a gun owner or open carrier in this scenario?

advising people to automatically comply with anything and everything a cop says is bad advice. people have the right to not be harassed, detained, arrested or searched. i exercise that right. if you don't want to, you don't have to. i'll stick with the 4th Amendment, Terry v. Ohio, Miranda etc.

Bobby
 
well in both NH and ME, open carry is legal and CCW is "shall issue", so provided you have your permit, there should be no problem at all.

Maybe lose points for bad form?
 
Bobarino

If you would really read my statement it has everything to do with survival and nothing to do with RIGHTS. I will not argue with you about what you can or cannot do, once you have helped deecalate the unknown man with a gun issue, you are free to assume what ever behavior you chose. I am concerned with officer safety and to some point your safety. Comply and do it right now has to do with a unknown man with a gun, and you have answered that with your last post.

I will repeate Do what You Wish, But please don't whine if you get manhandled.

Good Luck & Be Safe
 
Actually it was another THR member that was PM'ing me said I was a liar. Also I have been speaking with a Moderator and the post is being deleted Monday. I would like to move on. I am surprised this post has not been locked yet!.

Also just clearing it up! I have never EVER in my lifetime carried a gun illegally. I even looked it up. (Never ccw'd). I will not be replying to any more questions.

Thank You!
 
As a general rule, police are not allowed to search you without a warrant unless they have plain sight evidence that you committed a crime. Bare in mind that they can always pat you down if they have reason to suspect you are armed.
Though it SOUNDS like it varies from state to state, generally seeing clear evidence that the person is carrying a concealed firearm gives them the jurisdiction to search you PROVIDED you failed to provide proof that you have a CCW when prompted.
If you furnish proof that you are a legit CCW holder then they can bother you no more unless they have another reason.
Of course, if a violent crime is being committed at the time, expect complications and I would suggest not using a weapon in front of a cop unless you have absolutely no choice. The last thing you want is a cop not knowing who's the criminal and who's the self-defender. NEVER back up a cop in a shoot-out unless your life and/or the life of the cop clearly depends on it.
 
if an LEO detains me and asks for ID, I truthfully tell him I don't have any ID. If he asks if I have a CCW license, I simply won't respond.
Click to expand...

In some states, not having an ID makes you a vagrant, which in turn, subjects you to further investigation.
 
Your at the store and your guns printing and an LEO notices and stops to talk. If they ask to search you and whatnot what are your legal rights, what should you do?
Click to expand...

Well, they're obviously not the Grammar Police or you'd *really* be in trouble ;)

Seriously, in my state (WA), my reply would be something like "I would be happy to show you my CPL and ID, officer, but I'm sorry I do not consent to a search. May I also get your badge number and name?" I'd also make sure to explain where my CPL/ID was and get permission to go for it (i.e. "my wallet is in my back left pocket, I'm going to reach back there, OK?"). The badge number and name is partially to protect me from police impersonators or overzealous private security that I might have mistaken for police, and partially just because I'm ornery and if they can require my ID then I'm doing the same right back at them :)

In WA you must have your CPL and ID on you when carrying and must present it when asked, although you do not have to volunteer the info that you're packing if they don't already know.

If the officer thought they had probable cause, I doubt it would be phrased in the form of a question. In that case I'd be sure they could articulate to me the "probable cause" and I would cooperate, also making sure to get badge number and name.
 
If the officer thought they had probable cause, I doubt it would be phrased in the form of a question. In that case I'd be sure they could articulate to me the "probable cause" and I would cooperate, also making sure to get badge number and name.
Click to expand...

I don't get it. Many of the posts on this topic exploit the LEO as the enemy! What gives? The last thing anyone wants to do is turn them against us because we "want to show muscle". " I don't consent", " I don't have ID", " What is your probable cause?", " You have no right to search". For Gods sake, having a license to conceal and or open carry is a privilege given to us because we a up standing citizens who abide by the law. That privilege can be taken away at any time for the slightest of reason. LEO's have a tough enough job as it is. Lets not make it harder for them or us. If asked to show your ID, don't become Johnny Street corner lawyer. Just show it and be on your way. Life is too short to create unnecessary delays in what unknown time we have left. JMO......
 
Bare in mind that they can always pat you down if they have reason to suspect you are armed.
Click to expand...
The original scenario being they have already seen you legally carrying a firearm.

I don't get it. Many of the posts on this topic exploit the LEO as the enemy! What gives? The last thing anyone wants to do is turn them against us because we "want to show muscle". " I don't consent", " I don't have ID", " What is your probable cause?", " You have no right to search". For Gods sake, having a license to conceal and or open carry is a privilege given to us because we a up standing citizens who abide by the law. That privilege can be taken away at any time for the slightest of reason. LEO's have a tough enough job as it is. Lets not make it harder for them or us. If asked to show your ID, don't become Johnny Street corner lawyer. Just show it and be on your way. Life is too short to create unnecessary delays in what unknown time we have left. JMO......
Click to expand...
I don't get it either. The whole point is we either have rights or we don't. If you don't assert your rights, you don't have any. Carrying is currently a privilege in most states, despite the plain language of the US constitution and many state constitutions. We won't get it back by being submissive, or tolerating LE misconduct toward law abiding citizens. That does not mean it is necessary to be either rude or obnoxious about it.

OTOH, cooperation with LE is part of being a LAC. Somewhere there is a middle ground that can be found where the rights of LAC's are respected, while giving LE an appropriate level of cooperation. The main issue seems to be ego and testosterone issues on both sides of the equation.
 
ilbob

Hi Bob,

I do not seem to get that from the original post, maybe I missed it. Where does it say that the peace officer knows that the subject is legally carrying a firearm? How do we know that the LE is not lead there by a 3rd party?

I am tending to look at this as a peace officer placing himself at risk and confronting an UNKNOWN subject with a concealed firearm. If this is not a F/I to gather facts, then what is the reason for the interaction?
 
having a license to conceal and or open carry is a privilege given to us
Click to expand...
Um, sorry dude. But here in Ohio, I have a RIGHT to open carry. R-I-G-H-T. That's why I prefer to OC rather than CC... I enjoy exercising a RIGHT as opposed to a privilege.
 
Hi Bob, (great name by the way) :)

I do not seem to get that from the original post, maybe I missed it. Where does it say that the peace officer knows that the subject is legally carrying a firearm? How do we know that the LE is not lead there by a 3rd party?

I am tending to look at this as a peace officer placing himself at risk and confronting an UNKNOWN subject with a concealed firearm. If this is not a F/I to gather facts, then what is the reason for the interaction?
Click to expand...

In every state of the union there are people legally allowed to carry concealed firearms. Therefore the mere existence of a firearm is not a legitimate reason to believe a crime was, is, or might be committed. One could argue, and I might even support the argument, that such a situation could merit a closer look see, but not the automatic presumption of guilt of something, or that the individual poses a threat that seems to have been assumed by you earlier in your posts.

Unless you have some other information that supports a reasonable conclusion that the individual is/was/might be committing a crime, there is no PC. Thats does not mean that a 10 second chat with the guy might not lead you to such a reasonable conclusion.

Even a Terry stop, with its nearly unrestricted grant of power to police to search people, still requires some, admittedly very low, level of suspicion of a crime being committed.
 
Molon Labe:

Um, sorry dude. But here in Ohio, I have a RIGHT to open carry. R-I-G-H-T. That's why I prefer to OC rather than CC... I enjoy exercising a RIGHT as opposed to a privilege.
Click to expand...

Dude, your right to have a license in Ohio IS a privilege, given to you by the state, city, county, judge, police department or who ever issues your license. That right/privilege , can be taken away by the stroke of a pen, DUDE. The pen is mightier than the sword, don't ever forget that, DUDE. The slightest reason for the issuing authority to suspend or revoke your license will have you jumping through hoops to get it back. Be smart, just comply with the LEO and move on. Don't be an antagonist. DUDE.
 
I will say this about Sheriff's original question.

He never states 'this happened to me' he phrased it as a theoretical question, which is totally fine for a 15 year old to do.

Also, don't be suprised when a 15 year old streches the truth a little, call him on it, sure, but don't tar and feather him and run him out of town
 
...

Yea, I agree, I'll stick to his Profile listed age of 28..

--------
Join Date: April 15th, 2008
PostsTotal Posts: 164 (1.34 posts per day)
Find all posts by The_Sheriff
Find all threads started by The_Sheriff
Email:
Send a message via email to The_Sheriff
Private Message:
Send a private message to The_Sheriff

Additional Information Group Memberships
Age:
28
Interests:
Guns
What I do for the RKBA and other civil liberties:
NRA Member The_Sheriff is not a member of any public groups
--------------------



There's hope, just give it another 13yrs..


Ls
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

Deanimator
  • Locked
Am I Free to Stay?
2 3 4 5
Replies
109
Views
5K
Art Eatman
A
A
  • Locked
Am I free to leave now, officer?
2 3 4
Replies
75
Views
4K
Sam1911
S
D
  • Locked
Building Full Auto
2
Replies
31
Views
2K
freakshow10mm
F
S
  • Locked
When a cop says "please step out of your vehicle" or "may I search your vehicle?"
2 3 4
Replies
94
Views
6K
Art Eatman
A
P
  • Locked
chance of getting caught
Replies
5
Views
413
Art Eatman
A
Back
Top