Am I Free to Leave????

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In every state of the union there are people legally allowed to carry concealed firearms. Therefore the mere existence of a firearm is not a legitimate reason to believe a crime was, is, or might be committed. One could argue, and I might even support the argument, that such a situation could merit a closer look see, but not the automatic presumption of guilt of something, or that the individual poses a threat that seems to have been assumed by you earlier in your posts.

Unless you have some other information that supports a reasonable conclusion that the individual is/was/might be committing a crime, there is no PC. Thats does not mean that a 10 second chat with the guy might not lead you to such a reasonable conclusion.

Even a Terry stop, with its nearly unrestricted grant of power to police to search people, still requires some, admittedly very low, level of suspicion of a crime being committed.

That "admittedly very low, level of suspicion of a crime being committed' is usually fairly easy to articulate.

I don't claim to understand how the other 49 states operate, but here in CT I have a good understanding of what will happen if your gun "prints" and a reasonably alert officer notices it or what will happen if someone calls the police and reports there is a person with a gun because they believe you have one concealed due to printing or God forbid, you accidently expose it to their view.

The only legal way to carry concealed in CT is to have a permit allowing you to do so (a few exceptions apply but aren't pertinent to the discussion at hand). The law also requires you to have your permit with you when carrying concealed.

The RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) would be "illegal possession of a firearm". The officer would detain (called an investigative detention) you until he/she could discount a crime was occurring (which would be the illegal possession) through said investigation. The end result would be you showing the officer your permit to prove you are carrying legal.

And then hopefully, the officer is gun-friendly and understands that persons carrying legally are not a threat.... you would be on your way with a minimum of fuss once he/she knows you are legit. I would hazard to guess that if you played games and made a fuss, you may be charged with a few statutory violations or, at the least, have to endure a lecture on the meaning of concealed carry.

You could try to make a case that the officer was overly intrusive, but I doubt the courts would go your way.
 
from the original question, I'd suspect you could be subject to a Terry frisk in which the officer can pat you down a little bit out of concern for his/her own safety.

From there, the cop can disarm you should he/she discover a weapon.
Of course, a civilian would never attempt such a thing because feeling up an armed man who doesn't appreciate such things is just asking for trouble. ;)
 
For Gods sake, having a license to conceal and or open carry is a privilege given to us because we a up standing citizens who abide by the law. That privilege can be taken away at any time for the slightest of reason.
That is because they have managed to change the 2nd amendment, or override it, which spells out our *right* to keep and bear arms. Any law which goes against the constitution is null and void. That is another discussion, so I'll leave it at that. I am not saying that you should break the ccw laws, because the courts won't back you up unfortunately, but they are wrong. Carrying is not a privelege, it is a right. In some states they respect this right by allowing open carry without a permit. Others who do not allow carrying of any kind without a permit are in violation of the law of the land, the constitution.
On the question of whether to show id when asked but not required to do so(any time I am not driving, or being arrested), or whether to consent to searches, my answer is this. If you want to be treated like a free citizen who has rights, you have to act like one. It isn't because I hate the officer, or want problems. It is that I have other things to do than stand around having discourse with a police officer. If a crime has been committed that I can help him with info on, I will gladly help in any way I can, if he tells me that right off the bat. If he is wanting to do anything that makes me feel like he is investigating me, I will not stick around for that.
Life is too short to create unnecessary delays in what unknown time we have left. JMO......
Exactly, and that can be applied the other way around, if I am being asked to voluntarily stand around, show papers, and consent to searches for no reason (as I indicated before, if they ask, then you can assume that they have no "probable cause").
People let our government get away with way too much in the way of infringing on our rights, and I personally won't allow it at all, ever, if I am reasonably able to. Politely telling them that your rights are important to you, and that you don't surrender them should be enough of a reason. If they push it after that, then they are the one making it a confrontational situation.
 
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I do not care about illegal or legal evidence search, It's all about the gun that I have already seen.
I assume that you are a police officer. That statement from an "officer of the law" telling us that you don't care about the legality of what you do in that circumstance is very troubling to me. If I said that I didn't care about the legality of what I was doing, and went out and broke the law, and you saw it, you would make sure that there were consequences for me. You should be held to that same standard, and that is why I am so picky about standing up for myself and my rights in encounters with police officers.
 
TPAW:
Dude, your right to have a license in Ohio IS a privilege, given to you by the state, city, county, judge, police department or who ever issues your license. That right/privilege , can be taken away by the stroke of a pen, DUDE. The pen is mightier than the sword, don't ever forget that, DUDE. The slightest reason for the issuing authority to suspend or revoke your license will have you jumping through hoops to get it back. Be smart, just comply with the LEO and move on. Don't be an antagonist. DUDE.

DUDE, before you attempt sarcasm you might want to actually read the persons post.

Molon Labe:
Um, sorry dude. But here in Ohio, I have a RIGHT to open carry. R-I-G-H-T. That's why I prefer to OC rather than CC... I enjoy exercising a RIGHT as opposed to a privilege.

Open carry in Ohio is NOT a privilege, it is a right DUDE.
 
TPAW:

I don't know how else to say it: in Ohio at least, open carry is a right, not a privilege. Even the Ohio Supreme Court agrees. Do not say that I have a "privilege" to open carry. It is a right.
 
Excellent comments, LKB3rd. :)

As I mentioned on page 3 of this thread, I open carry a handgun whenever I'm out-n-about. So far there have been no problems. But sooner-or-later I expect a rogue LEO to detain me for having the nerve to open carry. I am a free citizen with inalienable rights, and I will not feed the cop's inflated sense of authority by giving up any of my rights. I will not, for example, provide ID, provide a CCW license, answer any question, or give permission to be searched. This may make the cop upset, but that's due to his ignorance and attitude, not mine. Furthermore, my digital audio recorder will record his every mistake. Rest assured that, after my lawyer and I are through with him & his department, the encounter will haunt him for the remainder of his career.

Why do I do this? Is it because I am anti-cop? No. I have two good buddies who are sheriff's deputies. (Both come over to my house house and shoot on a regular basis.) They don't like bad cops any more than I do. Someone has to show these rogue LEOs that they can't go around and harass innocent citizens and break laws with impunity. The courageous citizens who open carry (and carry audio recorders) serve to help weed out these bad cops.
 
"If a peace officer is in a lawful place, and thru his senses observes a potential breach of the peace, he has the discretion established by state codes and department procedure to exercise a remedy."

What do you mean "a potential breach of the peace"? Would not a person with a walking stick be a "pontential breach of the peace"? What about a leatherman tool or just a knife in a sheath? Please explain.

"exercise a remedy" to what? A potential breach of the peace? :confused:
 
I don't get it. Many of the posts on this topic exploit the LEO as the enemy! What gives? The last thing anyone wants to do is turn them against us because we "want to show muscle". " I don't consent", " I don't have ID", " What is your probable cause?", " You have no right to search". For Gods sake, having a license to conceal and or open carry is a privilege given to us because we a up standing citizens who abide by the law. That privilege can be taken away at any time for the slightest of reason. LEO's have a tough enough job as it is. Lets not make it harder for them or us. If asked to show your ID, don't become Johnny Street corner lawyer. Just show it and be on your way. Life is too short to create unnecessary delays in what unknown time we have left.

Varies by state. It most definately is a right in my state (VT) to carry open or concealed, see State v. Rosenthal, 1903. In many states and Ohio is included in this, open carry is a right, only concealed carry is a privilege. Life's too short to waste on LEO's who don't know the law.
 
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