How do you test handgun ammo penetration/expansion?

Milk jugs filled with water has worked for me. It gives a much more vague response on penetration, but I've never had trouble recovering a bullet. One idea is to set them on a tarp. The water runs off of the tarp, and the bullet won't sink into the (now) wet ground.

Over the years I've tried many methods. Most were just too much trouble.

Some years after trying various water methods I used lined up gallon water jugs.
This worked OK and gave consistent results but many bullets were lost and required a lot of plastic jugs and created a lot of trash.

After some testing I found that a HP or SP pistol or small rifle bullet will expand almost entirely in the first water jug if it is going to expand at all.

So now for my back yard testing I use a single one gallon water jug backed up by about a 14 inch box of rags to catch the bullet.

I very seldom lose a bullet now and the bullet expansion compares closely with that from other testing methods.

Best of all I can set up to test bullets as fast as I can fill the water jugs (backyard range).

An example of 45ACP and .223 Remington bullets shot into a single one gallon water jug.

The wet phonebook method.

I can see doing this for fun, but I'm not sure you can make valid comparisons this way. You don't want a handgun bullet that is optimized for water or phone books (unless those are frequent assailants in your neighborhood).

I knew a guy who would fire straight down into his swimming pool.

The few times I did it, I tried wet newspapers in a box, but they blew up, out of the box and all over the place, making quite a mess to clean up.

Most recently, when trying Barnes XPB bullets for my 500 Magnum, I filled a large plastic trash can with water and shot the side of it.

The bullet went through 30" of water and just exited the other side. I saw it shining on the grass, went to pick it up and it was still extremely HOT! It ruined the trash can as the side that it entered completely ripped open from top to bottom from the shock wave.

Then, I lined up gallon plastic jugs filled with water and the same XPB bullet went through four of them that were 8" accross, so, basically 32". The first three jugs blew completely open, the last jug had a good-size hole going in and the bullet was basically stuck to the far side into the plastic. I had to reach into the open side to get it out where it was stuck in the plastic.



When I saw the opened-up solid copper X bullets, they looked just like the Barnes advertisements.
I was impressed - to say the least.

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Since this is TOTALLY RELATED, check out this Barnes Bullets high speed video of an X Bullet hitting a gelatin block (high speed internet connection preferred), you can actually see the effect of the rotation of the X "pedals" inside the gelatin as the bullet is passing through and the corresponding hydrostatic shock wave!
I would think this would surely stop an animal in its tracks:

http://www.barnesbullets.com/videos/308_180gr_TSX_6fps_logo.wmv

Actually, I haven't heard of gelatin attacking anyone recently - at least not in my neighborhood - YET I WOULD NOT HESITATE IN THE LEAST TO LOAD AND SHOOT THAT BARNES BULLET!

Water soaked phone books make excellent JHP bullet stoppers. Actually too good.
These two 45ACP defense bullets only penetrated 2 1/4 inches.
The FN 5.7 from the pistol penetrated 6 1/2 inches and the FMJ 9mm easilly blasted through the books.
I don't think there is much useful info to be gained from using phone books. Besides they create too much trash that I have to get rid of.

I can see doing this for fun, but I'm not sure you can make valid comparisons this way. You don't want a handgun bullet that is optimized for water or phone books (unless those are frequent assailants in your neighborhood).

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The (corrected) results from using water compares reasonably close with jello, but them I don't think many people are assulted by jello either.

a box that will fit 2 thick phone books
the nite before soak them in a set tub and whenever you remember ( each commercial) fan/move them around in the water
next day put them in the box and inside a plastic trash bag
take along a old winter coat and jeans for to shoot through.

the results may not compare 1 to 1 to published gelatin tests but the ratio will probably be easily seen. i have made SD replicants this way (using a crony also)so i can practice what i carry on the cheap.

I shoot Dirt.

I was born in the mid 50's and Mentors & Elders were shooting dirt, before I was born.
I still shoot dirt.

Here is the real deal.

Guns were designed to shoot ammo of certain specifications and for an example, .38spl revolvers were manufactured to shoot 158 gr bullets to point of aim/point of impact. [POA/POI]

Another is 1911s and 200 gr loads, though the Military wanted a 230 gr...if memory serves 200 gr was what JMB designed the 1911 for originally.
200 gr HB 68 is a very accurate and very good load I and mine have used out of 1911s for all sorts of things, including handgun hunting for critters.
200 gr "flying ashtray" is another.




So factory ammo was shot, to determine feed, extract, repeat (reliability) , POA/POI.
Then Dirt.

The reason was to see how bullets held up.
Comparing store bought ( factory) to reloads.
Folks cast lead bullets, and getting the hardness and all set up, to reduce leading and get performance and ...
Check out any of the metallic loadings, designs, and whatever...

Investigate & Verify is just how I was mentored.

Dead serious, when I share how darn scary this Dirt test, revealed actual recovered bullets from critters felled, including two legged varmints!

Just a hand written record with bullets marked and kept in glass bottles medicine came in.
Shoot a critter, and compare bullets shot into dirt, with one recovered, with notes on gun, factory or reloads, and all the recipes.

Now critters have "coverings" , humans for instance have skin which is Elastic.
Very important to take into account elastic and other "coverings" such as fur, adipose fat and what-not.


Shooting Dirt.

Tom Givens tickled and surprised the daylights out of me, sharing he did this Dirt Test too, and wrote about it, in a Rangemaster Newsletter.
He even shared how human skin is elastic.


We took a box, and filled it with dirt.
Something elastic was stretched over the front to represent human skin.
Shoot the box through this "elastic" front.
Carefully get into the box of dirt to "see" and recover bullet, pellets, shotgun slugs, whatever "projectile" , including arrows and knife blades.

Investigate & Verify, like I said I was raised to do.

You see, there are a lot variables in all this "guns-n-loads" and one has to know what their and loads will do.
Mentors reloaded, handgun, rifle and even made slugs for shotguns, in .410, 28, 20 and 12 gauge.

We shared information as a "starting point" with each other, to sorta alleviate some time and resources for folks testing ammo, bullets, and what-not.

No need to use a store bought, or reload recipe, or cast bullet recipe, if a number of folks had had negative results.
Instead use the "suggestions" and narrow down Investigate & Verify loadings, find one/some , and tweak that load(s) for that gun, for that person's use.

Two guns, like shotguns, right off the assembly line one right after the other for instance, will not always shoot the same loadings the same, on pattern board for patterns, or slug groups.
Shooting that Dirt, assisted in them slugs (factory or homemade) in what worked in a shotgun for deer, or for hogs.
WE tested pellet loadings...even #9 shot, to #5, to 00 buck , any and everything, as pellets vary from how much antimony, and how "hard" they are.
Some shot is really soft, ( chilled) and even the "hard" ( target) differ in how soft or hard they are due to percentages of components.
Heck, some are not very round from the get go...

We KNEW what was was, as shotguns back them were fixed choke, and I still would rather have a fixed choke.
I know about them pellets, and deformity, and other Art & Science as I was raised to shoot dirt.
So this comes into play when using a shotgun for doves and quail, and then for small game and there is a difference in a wabbit and a Swamp wabbit, and duck and goose and...

Yeah, I know what projectiles looked like shot into that dirt, and what they looked like recovered from critters, including two legged critters.

Cows.
Dead Serious.
Not too long ago a 1928 Colt Detective Special and Vintage Model 36 ( forget year) using standard pressure, 158 gr, Lead Round Nose (LRN) put down a cow, with one shot.

Each gun, was used to put down one cow.
Each did so with one shot.


WE knew what them loads would do, as we had shot Dirt, and we had seen this load recovered from critters.


*old ways*

I thought I had seen something on either the History or Military History Channel and they were shooting blocks of clay........

sm....

I admire your simple ways!

I take 2 five-gallon buckets lined up, cut the front and backs out of them to give me a "shooting lane", line the insides with a trash bag, and fill with water. Cheap,simple,portable, and effective. Also creates zero trash.

Inspector,
Thanks.

Investigate & Verify is the only way anyone is actually going to be able to get an idea for them, as to what does what from their guns and for their tasks.

Idea.
'Taint no absolutes, magic talismans or anything else.

Trust me and others that have shot various media, and results do not always repeat themselves.

Reality is Real.

i.e. Wall penetrations.
There is a difference in just shooting a piece of drywall, and shooting a "wall" as it really is in a structure.


Too many variables: Age of structure , quality of materials, 2x4 or 2x6s used, insulation, and if so what type?
Painted, wall paper , paneling, or rustic wood ?

ie. Glass.
Projectiles do really odd things with glass!

I and mine had a different need to know that many folks .
One way mirrors we set up to shoot through in case of serious threats!
Shooting lanes, backstops , and cover, not concealment - cover.

So before anything was actually set into place, we actually went out and shot it.
I do mean with handgun, shotgun and rifle, to "investigate and verify" the best we could, what Evil may have as a firearm and loads, and what our Firearm and loadings were.

And I do mean having that wall built, with that mirror and being shot, before the darn mirror was actually put into use, in a real structure.

Real deal, serious reasons to know, and many based on real life situations.
Yeah one learns from mistakes of others, including those that got shot, and even died.

ADEE was in effect even way when, even before we had the actual ADEE to use.
Practiced plans, and lots of actually training with folks.

Software, not hardware.

Still, if matters got serious, all the hours, time and money with folks (Software) was there along with Hardware "investigated and verified".

Dead serious, mdse is insured, evil can have that. Evil is not going to take a person, especially a lady as a hostage.

I knew damn well a 230 gr hardball load would go through that mirror and I could hit evils head.
I knew a 12 ga / 20 ga slug would too.
No doubt the 30-30 with 170 gr, or Model 70 in '06 with 165 gr loads would either.
Other loads from handguns too, and not only penetration, also deflection of POA/POI.

Shooting lanes, and backstops, I knew would stop my/our bullets, and those of Evil.


Glass is a really interesting media.
It has always been so, and many folks have known this forever.
Laugh if you will at someone using Glass bricks in the home, or business setting today.

Go build you a replica of a business front, a bar , waiting area, whatever you see...
Now shoot the lastest new fangled handgun load and whatever everyone sez you gotta have.

There is a reason I suggested glass bricks be used for some settings, including the home.
I'd hate to see that nice deal built, get shot, still I know it will stop these hot handgun rounds, and 12 ga Brennke Slug and .308, and .223...


I also know, I can say a "word" and some kids will hit the deck "just like Stop-Drop-Roll" and be behind cover, that will protect them from evil.
It is what is between walls, or in a closet, or toy box...that will stop and offer protection for a kid.


Everyone checks all this penetration going away from them, they rarely Investigate and Verify what penetration is coming at them.

Evil uses nice guns, with mags that holds lots of rounds too. They don't care about over penetration, or laws, or anything else. That is why we call them criminals.

One is wise to Investigate & Verify, and to keep in mind Incoming has the right-of-way.

In using the Shoot Dirt. Me and Mine have always used things in front, to see deflection, and penetration.
See we shot stuff to see and know, and learn for knowing.

It might surprise folks how elastic a light windbreaker jacket is, or trash bag, or yellow rain slicker is.


*whaddya think about that*

Wow

I think the best way to test how a bullet will penetrate and expand in flesh; is to shoot flesh. The next time I kill a deer I'm going to shoot various pistol cartridges into the head, the chest, and the rump; to see how well they penetrate, and how much they expand.

I couldn't help but laugh when I imagined a potential onlooker or the like seeing you guys hunt...

"Oh look honey, a deer!"

*gunshot*

Look over, see deer drop.

Wait a few minutes.

Fellow in blaze orange walks out to the deer.

Inspects its rack for a minute.

Man takes three steps back.

Draws a Glock and shoots one round into the torso.

Reholsters.

Man draws a J-frame from ankle and shoots one round into the rump.

Onlookers look at each other, raise eyebrows, and quietly sneak away from the crazy fellow that doesn't know when an animal is dead.

Ballistics gelatin.

paper, clay, mud, water jugs is just playing around. If you want to test bullets the closest to human medium, then do it the same as the FBI does it.

Google "ballistics gelatin". I believe that the 2nd or 3rd entry gives you recipies, instructions and sources for the gelatin. It'll cost you $100-300 of 'jello' though.

sm:
I love you. You are my hero.

I'd like to learn some effective, yet inexpensive methods for testing the penetration/expansion of a handgun round.

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In relation to what? Are you trying to determine how effective a round will be when shooting it in self defense? I don't think wet newspaper can give you a good idea of that, do you?

The cheapest and most effective way is to read the results of people who have published the results of their proper testing. Shooting phone books, water bottles, and a side of roast are all fun times but they're not an accurate test, that is why we have ballistic gelatin. You'll have to do some research and learn what a proper testing protocol is, if the test you're reading followed it, etc but the results will be more useful.

Might be worth contacting member JE223, who seems to be associated with http://www.brassfetcher.com/FAQ.html for information. A search on threads started by JE223 will yield a lot of results in gelatin.

Ben86

Inspector, awesome vid, I'll have to check those out. How do they compare to corbon dpx?

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I think you can actually get the same Barnes XPB's loaded onto Corbon brass.

Expect to pay $36 or more for 12 rounds.