Need Advice on a "Safe": Amsec v. Sturdy v. Other?

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justindo

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Hi all,

I'm new to the forum and looking for an RSC or "safe." I've read many of the posts on the subject here and while I'm tempted to purchase a large Graffunder B, C, or E series safe, I'm planning on moving from my current residence within a few years and I really don't want to go through the expense and inconvenience of moving a very heavy safe. Also, there's a strong possibility that my future residence will be a 100ish year old old house with no basement, so weight will be a factor.

I think I've done my homework and while a lot of the gun "safes" look nice, I'm more concerned with security and, to a degree, fire protection. Right now I don't imagine myself needing a huge safe until many years from now as I can't see myself owning more than a half dozen long guns and a half dozen handguns, along with storage space for some watches, jewelry, and papers. Based on my research, I've narrowed my options down to an Amsec BF6032 and a Sturdy 2419, although I'm open to other suggestions.

Both Amsec and Sturdy seem to be good values, offer fair fire protection (I'm in and will be in an urban area, so the fire department is never very far away), and good "common criminal" protection. There are things I like and dislike about both "safes." The pluses with Amsec are that it's a large company, I can get in-home installation, the model I'm looking at is a bit deeper and wider than the Sturdy model, the door plate is thicker, and the interior is nicer. The pluses with the Sturdy are that its body steel is thicker (7 ga. v. 10 ga. for the Amsec), the dial is better and I can reset the combination myself, and I like their no-frills, no-nonsense, no-advertising sensibility. Both safes are within $500 of each other delivered (the Sturdy is cheaper), although I'd probably have to move the Sturdy inside my house with an appliance dolly or a pallet jack, so that might make the prices close to equal.

So which "safe" do the experts and the enthusiasts recommend, or is there another company I should consider, and why? Thanks in advance.
 
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The AMSEC is almost impossible to beat in its price range.

The body steel is thinner than the Sturdy, but the Sturdy is a single layer of steel with gypsum board up against it. The AMSEC has a double steel wall in which the void is pumped with composite "concrete". This not only provides a better fire barrier, but also make a thick monolithic wall which will hold up better against a brute force attack.

The combination locks will be similar, and both can be changed. Unless you are very familiar with changing combinations you shouldn't do it. It is very easy to mess up, and can result in your locking yourself out of your safe. Combination changes performed by non locksmiths also void the lock warranties.
 
"Also, there's a strong possibility that my future residence will be a 100ish year old old house with no basement, so weight will be a factor."

Count on the 100 year old house supporting the weight as well or better than any of the crap houses they are putting up today.
 
jaytex1969: What I mean about the 100ish year old house is that it won't be on a slab so, at the very least, I'd have to reinforce the floor, which, I think, would be both difficult and expensive.

Guns R Tools: You're correct that Sturdy uses the supposedly better fiberglass, not gypsum board.

a1abdj: Thanks for you quick response. From what I've seen and read, the Amsec BF safes seem to be the best of the major brands in their price range due to the fact that Amsec makes "real safes" as opposed to "gun safes," so they have vast experience and are more about quality than marketing. I understand that, like Graffunder, Amsec uses a type of injected "concrete" for fire protection, which is a lot better than the gypsum board in "gun safes." That said, what concerns me about the Amsec safes is their relatively thin outer metal body walls compared to the Sturdy Safe outer walls (7 ga. v. 10 ga.), especially considering that, based on what I've read, 90-95% of safes are breached through the body, not the door. (Although I've not heard much good about Liberty safes, at least their top of the line models use 7 ga. outer walls.) Based on what I've heard and read, the pictures I've seen on the Sturdy website, and in talking with owner/maker of Sturdy, one can get through 10ga. with an ax pretty fast compared with 7 ga. (Of course I realize that the Sturdy Safe owner/maker is trying to push his product over others, but his point it does make sense, especially when one considers that true safes use thick 1/4" plate at minimum.) Once through the outer metal of the Amsec BF, I would think it would then be relatively easy to get through the injected "concrete" and that the internal layer of metal is really more for the containment of the "concrete" and acts as a liner rather than an actual serious barrier to burglary. It this assumption correct or not? (Sturdy uses a 16 ga. liner and they say it's more for the containment of their fire liner than for actual burglary security. Like Fort Knox, Sturdy offers a 10 ga. interior liner, but the owner/maker doesn't recommend it, as he says that 10 ga. is easy to get through with an ax.) Regarding burglary, would you personally feel safer having a 7 ga. outer body with fiberglass liner and a 16 ga. interior liner or Amsec's 10 ga. outer body with injected "concrete" liner and their ?? ga. interior liner? How about regarding fire?

Also, what is your opinion of the Amsec HS series RF6528 compared to the BF series? I realize there is a large price difference, a large fire rating difference, and, most importantly for me, a huge weight difference, but is the HS Series RF6528 a significantly better safe in terms of burglary? What is the thickness of the metal plate of the body and the door, as Amsec doesn't mention it? How does the HS Series RF6528 compare to a Graffunder Bishop which seems to be in the same ballpark in terms of price? Once again, my main concern with the Amsec HS Series RF6528 is the thickness of the outer body metal. While it is a TL-30 rated safe, it's not a TL-30X6 rated safe and the latter rating would give me much better piece of mind.

Once again, thanks for all your help in answering my questions.
 
I thought the Sturdy used fiberglass on their product with fire protection, they use gypsum board?
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You are correct. I get in a bad habit of not using the term "fire barrier" when I should and often replace it with "gypsum board" since that's what most gun safes use.

The insulation on their safes is in fact not gypsum board. My point was that the insulation does not add to the burglary resistance of the unit.

That said, what concerns me about the Amsec safes is their relatively thin outer metal body walls compared to the Sturdy Safe outer walls (7 ga. v. 10 ga.), especially considering that, based on what I've read, 90-95% of safes are breached through the body, not the door.
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The easiest way to explain the difference is a simple piece of paper. If you hold up a piece of paper, you can stick your finger through it easily.

Now, take that same paper, fold it and glue it, and make some corrugated cardboard. You won't stick your finger through it.

The AMSEC works on the same principle. When using brute force on a safe, the flexibility of the steel is the biggest weakness. When you use a single layer of thin steel with nothing rigid behind it (gypsum board isn't rigid enough) the steel will bend, flex, and tear as you beat on it. This is not as big of a problem with AMSEC because the concrete fill between two layers of steel makes the walls very rigid.

Lay a piece of aluminum foil on your driveway, and hit it with a hammer. See how many times you have to hit it before it tears.

To the gun safe manufacturers who claim that AMSECs composite method is not as effective I ask this:

Why is it that most modern day Jewelers's safes and bank vault doors are concrete panels wrapped in thin steel?
 
I compared the two (Sturdy and Amsec) and went for the AMSEC. Because I wanted the best fire protection, I was a little leary about the "independent" company that provided the fire rating to Sturdy. In researching that aspect I found there are no real controls or standardization for how those "independent" companies do their testing. At least with UL you know what you're getting.

As for the lighter gauge of steel on the AMSEC, I can verify that the concrete creates a very sturdy, and what I think, IMHO, would be a tremendous deterent to a smash and grab scenario.

I am very happy with my purchase (BF6030) and would recommend the line to anyone.
 
Justindo,I commend you for doing so much research on your future purchase and I have been down this same road.
I researched practically every gun safe maker out there and have stacks of catalogs on my end table to bare that out.
I too worried more about burglary protection first and fire protection second.
I understand both a very important but where i live i think one will hear about far more home breakins than you ever will hear about someones house burning to the ground.
That being said my research tells me that the Amsec BF gun safe gives you much better fire protection than it's sheet rock filled competitors.
And i have no doubts at all that the person or two that breaks into your home will generally be equipped with some sort of pry bar that gains entry into your home and he/they will wear themselves completely out trying to pry or beat their way into your Amsec BF.
In fact i think they would have their work cut out for them even if the safe you owned was a 12 gauge bodied safe with at least a 3/16th plate door as long as the safe was bolted down.
As a matter of fact i got to do a little experiment two weeks ago.
I live here in Houston and we are cleaning up after Ike.
A large oak tree fell on and ruined a business's trash dumpster.
I looked on the web to check out the specs of that particular brand of trash dumpster (Roll Off made in Mead Ok.)and found out the body is made from 12 gauge steel.
I used my three foot axe on that thing and it took some work just to finally make a thru cut on the thing and that was after eight swings.
And even then it was not much of a gash.
So think about some dopey Opie trying to beat his way through that Amsec or for that matter some other brand using a more premium 3/16th steel body.:neener:
It will be a long day without the use of power tools my friends.:)

I still like the concept of a double wall safe.
And by the way the inner liner of the Amsec BF is 16 gauge steel which is the same thickness on most construction job boxes.
I priced a Ft.Knox Defender 60x41 recently with the fire rated door and the addtional 10 gauge inner liner and it was around 2800.00
The new Amsec 66x36 is a bit less in price.
So for me it will almmost surely be one of these two.
Good luck and let us know what you finally decided to buy.
 
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i know not what course others may take but for me its going to be a zanotti which can be taken down into 6 peices and moved easily.

in my divorce i lost a good safe due to its portability issues.it was 1400lbs and 6 feet tall 4 feet wide and 3feet deep.

never again
 
safe

Zanotti:I helped a friend with one it is awsum.and you can move it if you move.also you can lag it to floor or wall.
dont worry about old house.they were made strong.Probably2 x 8 joists.even then you can reenforce the spot with 4x4s upright.:uhoh::rolleyes::D
added.a cold chisel will cut thru sheetmetal.or drill and then saw.
there was not the portabl power tools there are now.but it takes time which is what crooks dont have.
 
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Fort Knox. End of discussion.
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Some of the Fort Knox line is certainly worth considering, but the ones that are cost much more than the AMSEC will. I sell Fort Knox also, but am not a stocking dealer. Most of our business with Fort Knox is vault doors or higher end custom ordered safes.

Fort Knox's top of the line safe retails in the $11,000+ range. I could sell you a real burglary rated safe with a much better fire rating, and a 3,400 pound weight tag for about half of that.
 
I'm currently shopping for a safe too and have decided on either of 2 options: sturdy safe 2723 or amsec 6032 or 6030. Hard to argue with the ruggedness of 3/16" steel and the simpler side-mounted active bolt linkage of the sturdy safe. My concern is the 7 gauge steel versus the 10 gauge w/concrete barrier. I'd think breaching the 10 gauge is relatively easy. Then, a few bangs with a sledge shatters the concrete. Finally, an ax zips through the 16 gauge. Also, the Amsec is heavier, and, even with the door removed, is gonna be much more of a bear to move than the sturdy safe (810pounds for 6032; 885 for 6030; 740 for Sturdy 2723). My info says the sturdy has a 14 gauge fire liner as standard, which would provide some burglary protection possibly on par with the amsec's 10 gauge-concrete-16 gauge arrangement. Both are solid choices, but the thicker steel and lighter weight are possibly the clincher for me...but I'm still undecided.
 
While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out. If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun. All of the models being discussed are more than enough protection for the likely burglary. Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.
 
I agree Makster.
Having had my home burglarized three times in 27 years most of the time they used some sort of prying tool to jimmy the front or rear door open and just ransacked all the closets and drawers.
Of course they always took the stereo,T.V.,etc.
And of course my guns.
The home has not been burglarized since i bought my gun safe five years ago.
It has a 10 gauge body and a 1/4 inch plate door.
So unless they had a massive set of pry bars or sawzall i trust it would hold the line being that they probably would be in the house less than ten minutes.
Even that low end safe,which is too small now for my needs it would more than likely survive the attack by hammer or small pry bar....I hope.
 
While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out. If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun. All of the models being discussed are more than enough protection for the likely burglary. Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.
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Axe, Not really sure on that one. Little grinder and a few minutes. They can open the safe like a sardine can. It is called skinning and it works very well. Especially if your safe only has one wall and drywall in it. opps excuse me. I meant fire board. :D
 
While it's possible to break through the side of most gun safes with an ax, the hole would be too small to pull much out
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This safe was emptied out as a result of the hole in the side.

libertyburglary1.jpg


If someone reached in through that jagged mess they couldn't pull out a long gun.
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The problem isn't loosing your long guns. Many manufacturers have tricked the consumer into believing that these gun safes are in home replacements for your safe deposit box at the bank.

Cash, jewelry, coin collections, silverware, and other valuable items are easily removable through that hole.

Don't go overboard to protect against a one in a million scenario.
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Although this is good advice, you have to know what's overboard and what's not. What's overboard for $1,000 worth of guns is certainly not overboard for $25,000 worth of guns.
 
Thanks for the photo!

I'm assuming it was a 12 gauge body and a Chinese-made safe, right? Isn't Chinese steel softer than American steel? At least I've heard this, and it makes intuitive sense, since the Chinese are expert at producing sub-quality products since they don't answer as directly to the market place as an American-based business.
 
I'm assuming it was a 12 gauge body and a Chinese-made safe, right?
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That is a 12 gauge Liberty, which according to them, is US made.

Isn't Chinese steel softer than American steel?
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Sometimes, but not always.

the Chinese are expert at producing sub-quality products since they don't answer as directly to the market place as an American-based business.
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You would be surprised. The Chinese finally figured out that they couldn't keep selling junk to the US. They have reverse engineered many US designs, and are producing them for import.

We sell a line of Chinese safes which is built better than a lot of the US made safes they compete with.
 
It seems to me that it would not be that hard to buy an RSC and then weld up a 5-sided box of sheet steel at 3/16" thick around it. On second thought that seems too easy.
So guys tell me what's wrong with that idea? Like I said it seems too easy...
 
When we bought our first gun safe it was an Amsec. When we bought the one we have now (quite a lot larger, imagine that.... :neener:) I looked around a lot. a1abdj posted some good data about the Amsec's, and although I found cheaper safes in the Houston area, we didn't find one better for the price range. We're real happy with ours, and I'd highly recommend them. And if (when) we get another one, it'll be the same brand. If it ain't broke...

Amsec is a real good choice.

Springmom
 
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