Taking handguns into California.

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twoclones

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I've been told that I might be doing some mineral exploration work in Northern California in the near future. When working I'm alone in very remote areas and always carry for protection from large predators. So my first thought was the legal concerns of taking a handgun into California and carring it with me in the mountains.

What's legal and what's not?
Can I transport my handgun into and around CA?
Carry it in the wilderness without a hunting license?
Should/can I get a CA Handgun Safety Certificate? To what benefit?

I suppose it's a whole different can of worms to shoot a cougar in self-defense in California than it would be in Nevada or Idaho.... Maybe I should just pass on this assignment :uhoh:
 
1. Anything over a 10-round magazine is a no-no. No threaded barrels on pistols, no forward grips, and no magwells outside the grip. But your standard revolver or semiauto (with appropriate magazine) should be fine. The list of approved handguns only applies to new dealer sales, not guns brought in for personal use, so you don't have to worry about the list. You just need to be sure your pistol isn't an "assault weapon".
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/genchar2.php

2. Sure. It must be unloaded and in a locked case, which can be a zipped-up gun rug with a luggage lock. Or it can just be in the trunk, no need for a case. It can't be in the glovebox or console, though, even if they're locked. That's considered "concealed" even if the gun is unloaded.

From the California Highway Patrol:
http://www.chp.ca.gov/html/answers.html

California law does not recognize concealed weapon permits from other states; therefore, they would not be held valid. If you wish to transport a handgun during your California visit, it should be carried unloaded in a locked container. In the absence of a suitable container, you may secure the unloaded handgun in the locked trunk of a passenger car. Ammunition may be kept in the same container or trunk, but the handgun must remain unloaded with no rounds in the cylinder and no loaded magazines in the magazine well.

If you have additional questions, contact the California Department of Justice at 916-227-3703.

3. Yes -- assuming the wilderness is an unincorporated area, and carry isn't prohibited for some other reason like state park land, you can open carry. You can also carry openly or concealed at your campsite, domicile, and "place of business." How these apply to what you're doing is something you'd know better than me.
http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/ has more details. Beware: the gun laws are almost endless.

4. HSC is only used for purchasing a handgun. There's no reason for you to get one.

If a cougar gets shot in the wilderness and there's nobody around, does it make any sound when you bury it?

I wouldn't worry about it. SSS. If you need to shoot the thing in self-defense, a potential fine is the least of your worries. Shoot it if you have to -- with the caveat that you're unlikely to see a cougar anyway.

http://www.calguns.net is a great resource for detailed legal info. Looks a lot like THR, but it's for Californians.

(BTW I'm sitting in San Diego, not Idaho, as I write this.)
 
This is an Public Service Announcement, brought to you by Miners for Mountain Lion Defense, and the Ad Council. Oddly, it's in Arabic.

Shovel_gun.jpg
 
Probably would not hurt to talk to some locals in the area you are working first just to get a feel for anything going on in the area.

You know, meth labs, pot-growing activities, etc. Bring a fishing pole and carry concealed with your fishing license.......

I am not a lawyer, so my advice may be wrong. Hopefully there are locals you will be working with?

And after your trip, please come back to THR to tell everyone how California is not all Los Angeles/San Francisco. :)
 
Thanks for the detailed reply.
with the caveat that you're unlikely to see a cougar anyway

I agree which is why they concern me. I also work with a dog at my side. Not sure if she is a protector or decoy ;)

A few years ago, another contractor working in the same area had a cougar encounter. He threw a stick over a small hill for his dog to fetch. The dog rushed back, already bleeding, with a cougar on it's heels! This guy had the dog and cougar running around him with only a 2x2 claim post to thwart the attack. He was successful but took the rest of the day off.

mineral exploration work involves digging holes and filling them back in, right?

And planting wild flowers in the dirt mound for the carbon credit.

Does CA even issue a non-resident concealed carry permit?
 
Does CA even issue a non-resident concealed carry permit?

BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

Seriously, though, contact the Sheriff where you're going.

CA is a may-issue state. Some rural Sheriffs have no problem issuing permits. However, fees, etc. can be high. For wilderness carry, I wouldn't bother. Best holster you can buy is cheaper.
 
I'll second pretty much everything ArmedBear said. It's a minefield, depending on where you'll be, but if you're really in the boonies, it does make it a little easier.

You can also call the CADOJ (number can be found at http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms) but if you want to really back yourself up, you'll ask for a written reply or statement and carry it with you, just in case.
 
You may also try posing your question on Calguns.net

There are some folks whose hobby is to stare at California gun law until it starts making sense..... not right or wrong sense, but what is allowed/not allowed..... I have to quit after about 45 seconds.....

Who knows, maybe you will end up with a guide!
 
There are some folks whose hobby is to stare at California gun law until it starts making sense..... not right or wrong sense, but what is allowed/not allowed..... I have to quit after about 45 seconds.....
Where's the ROFL smiley when I really need it?

I resemble that description. Hobby! :) I guess it is.

ArmedBear has almost all of it. I'll just add there is no provision for CCW licensing for non-CA residents, and of course CA does not honor any other state's CCW.
 
In general, carrying a loaded gun, even openly and even in desolate country, is prohibited and could, under some circumstances, be a felony. In some cases it might be permissible to carry a loaded handgun openly in areas in which hunting is permitted -- if you have a valid hunting license.

Check out California gun laws here -- http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/index.html
 
I'd also like to point out, since you are out of state, your hand gun will not be registered with the CA doj... So if your cuaght carrying it concealed, it is a felony. Just a FYI... as was said above, glove box= concealed, so is the center consol and under the seat...
 
A refinement....

The bit about glove box and center console is true, as far as 'concealed' goes, but more in the sense of carrying a concealable weapon concealed (because you can't see it); ordinarily a violation of PC 12025, CA allows an exemption for unloaded weapons contained in fully-enclosed, locked containers (including the trunk), but explicitly excluding glove box and 'utility compartment' (many people accept that 'center console' is also a 'utility compartment') - PC 12026.2
(d) As used in this section, "locked container" means a secure
container which is fully enclosed and locked by a padlock, keylock,
combination lock, or similar locking device. The term "locked
container" does not include the utility or glove compartment of a
motor vehicle.
 
Open Carry Unloaded

Unloaded = *edited to remove erroneous information, see below*

Calguns.net has a pretty good grip in this topic......
 
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Unloaded = no round in the chamber, magazine may be inserted (case law supports this)

Case law does not support this AFAIK. Case law supports a loaded magazine in a pocket of the same holster or belt, and it supports a loaded sidesaddle, but the law is pretty specific about a loaded, inserted magazine.

But again, that just applies to incorporated or prohibited areas, not wilderness.
 
I disagree with Birukun and suggest that before you consider openly carrying a gun with a loaded magazine inserted but without a round in the chamber you consult with the California DOJ or a California attorney who familiar with firearm law.

It is your freedom at stake. Are you really willing to trust your freedom to anonymous opinion on the Internet? If Birukun is wrong, if the folks at Calguns are wrong, they will not be around to help you out of any difficulty you may get into following their advice.

Birukun said:
Unloaded = no round in the chamber, magazine may be inserted (case law supports this)
And exactly what case said that? Can you provide the citation to the case in the official California law reports?
 
I agree he should consult with an attorney, see my first post.

I can say that the DOJ will be of little or no help, they will tell you to consult an attorney, even to the people they serve that live in the state.

I stand corrected on the part of the magazine being inserted - Librarian's link is the answer I would go with. I may have read that when it was being discussed at Calguns before it was 'all worked out'. My apologies.

If you do need legal counsel in California, Calguns will point you in the right direction there as well. http://trutanichmichel.com/ has done a lot of work in California.

Good luck and may your work be fruitful in the Golden State.
 
Unloaded = no round in the chamber, magazine may be inserted

That's the Fish and Game definition of "unloaded", and of course doesn't apply everywhere or in every circumstance.

Don't confuse the guy. He may think CA only has a couple sets of laws and following just one section of law is enough. :neener:

The Fish and Game definiton of loaded does allow that. That is valid when the penal code is not more restrictive. The Penal Code considers a firearm loaded when just a round is in the magazine inside the firearm.
However it does not consider it loaded to have rounds or a loaded magazine outside of the firearm when open carried. People still get arrested by police that do not understand this though, and they must then spend sums of cash to prevail in court.
This is open carry only ('unloaded'.)
If the firearm is in anyway concealed then the rules change.


Of course just having a firearm and ammunition anywhere on your person is considered loaded if you commit another crime. So in that case it goes from legaly unloaded to illegaly loaded just because another criminal statute was triggered changing the definition of loaded.


CA gun laws are funny things. Half the officers enforcing them won't even know them or can interprete them wrong.

There is also a fish and game law that makes it a crime to use a flashlight (or headlights) powered by more than 3 volts anywhere that game animals may live, including the side of the road, or near your campsite etc if you are armed with something that could be used to kill that animal, even if you do not kill or attempt to kill or pursue it.
Essentialy anytime you have a firearm it is illegal to use a flashlight more powerful than 3 volts in the wilderness (always in effect not just while hunting etc.)

If you took a flashlight powered by more than 2 standard 1.5v batteries to go crap in the woods and you are armed while doing it then you are commiting a crime.
If you shined a flashlight (of more than 3 volts) out to see what a noise was near your campsite and you are armed while doing it you broke the law.

The laws are crazy.


However to keep things simple for you. You can legaly bring a handgun with you. You must transport it in a locked case or in your trunk (which is still easier to just have a locked case so you can take it out of the trunk.) It cannot be loaded during transport. You must only bring magazines with a 10 round or less capacity.

Carrying it in the wilderness becomes more complicated and depends on many factors.
Technicaly it is not legal to carry a loaded firearm where it is unlawful to discharge that firearm (outside of self defense) in most cases besides personal property, business etc.
It will generaly be unlawful for you most of the time if you have no hunting license and are not on land such as BLM land, or where discharge is okay like at a range in the wilderness etc elsewhere.
You can keep a loaded firearm at a campsite as it counts as your residence, but that is different than the woods in general.
assuming the wilderness is an unincorporated area, and carry isn't prohibited for some other reason like state park land, you can open carry.
Even many unincorporated areas enact an ordinance prohibiting discharge of firearms, and that then triggers state laws regarding carrying of firearms because if it is not legal to discharge (recreationaly) then it effects how it may be carried. I spend quite a bit of time in some unincorporated areas that have ordinances against discharge of firearms. In fact I learned about this when someone I know wanted to shoot on thier own private property out in the boonies. They may have been miles from other people, but they were in an unincorporated area that had a local ordinance against discharge of firearms, and that even meant they couldn't shoot on thier own land recreationaly because that minor ordinance triggered other state law. (They could still carry any way they wished on thier own land of course.)
A large number of unincorporated areas have ordinances, and those then apply to the wilderness within them as well. For the purpose of openly carrying a loaded firearm in the wilderness (besides your campsite) it must be in a place where it is not unlawful to discharge the firearm recreationaly.

Further if you cross certain unmarked boundaries legal can become illegal. For example out in the desert there is land it is legal to carry and recreationaly fire a firearm. Then there is land where it is illegal to even have a firearm at all (state parks, recreational areas etc) criss-crossing through the desert. In reality the landscape does not change at all, just the invisible boundary does. So you need a zoning topo map to know how various places are zoned to even travel in the wilderness or remote areas and remain legal.
There is some areas I have gone out camping that travel within thousands of feet on several sides for miles of land that it illegal to even take a firearm into. Thier is no markers and you simply must know the invisible legal boundaries of the land through the use of satelite pictures and topographical maps that include zoning. Often times the boundaries are rather irregular, and include odd angles etc. There is no fences or visible difference in the landscape, so without the maps you would be unaware when you were legal and when you were commiting serious crimes (like having a loaded firearm in a state or national park in CA.)
 
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Thanks for all the input

I'm heading to Colorado to make chainsaw carvings for the next week and my internet access will be very limited. I appreciate everyones' input and will check this thread again when I get back online.
 
Hope everything goes well for you. Everyone has pretty much covered everything. I'll just add in, I was open carrying out here, with a loaded magazine OUTSIDE of the magazine well, no round in chamber, and was still arrested for Carrying a Loaded Firearm. I was in the right, doing everything legally, but, they still have my gun, and are planning on filing charges. So, maybe invest in that sharp stick. Just make sure it doesn't resemble a spear, there's bound to be some law against that.
 
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