The Ultimate Handgun Grip Technique Thread?

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dubious

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Its hard to find good resources on the web for the real nitty gritty details of handgun shooting. I want to know, in detail, what I should be doing with EVERY single one of my fingers, my hands, and my arms. I want to know it well enough to repeat it perfectly every time. It's probably impossible to convey this through the written word, but I want to be as well equipped as I can possibly be.

I realize there are many different views on this topic... I'm interested in what techniques work for you in controlling guns with just average triggers. $2000 tricked out Dan Wesson 1911s are going to require less trigger and grip control then joe average's Rock Island. Whatever technique the IPSC guys recommend may not apply to me.

Let me be blunt: shooting handguns is extremely challenging. I've been studying semi auto pistol technique for a couple years now, and I'm still a mediocre / poor pistol shot. 4-6" groups at 7 yards with a few flyers are the norm. None of my guns have very good triggers, but they aren't horrible.

I also feel like I have a much better grasp on site picture and trigger control than what grips really work. Who wants to chime in here or point me to some really great resources?



!!!EDIT!!! Since I've received a wealth of replys that haven't been very helpful to my personal situation, I've decided to add the following:

Yes, I am sure I am talking about grip here, that's what I want to focus on. I know there are many other topics, but that's not what I want to discuss here. I'm not a novice, I've gotten some training from pro trainers (but not enough). They have all thought I had the basics down pat. I've read every article I can find and watched tons of videos on youtube. I've watched the Todd Jarret video like 100 times. I'm not looking for "the basics on grip". Todd Jarret comes close to what I'm asking about, but hasn't been helpful enough.

I guess the reason I didn't post what I DO know is because of time constraints.

I can get nice tight groups with a sweet trigger job 1911, but not with my 5 pounder. Here's my 1911 grip... in words, off the top of my head without refreshing myself watching anything or reading anything.... just to give you guys an idea of what I DO know from being a nerd.

MY 1911 Grip, please feel free to tear me to pieces:


Right Hand:
1. Push the 1911 beavertail up into the web of my thumb to get the highest axis possible, thereby reducing muzzle flip and improving consistancy. With the right thumb, ride the rail on top of the safety, pointing the thumb directly at your target. Not much pressure with the thumb. Be mindful of the sharp slide's action.

2. With the right hand (shooting hand) grasp the gun with my middle finger strong enough that my middle finger ALMOST turns white from lack of circulation, but doesn't. As strong as I can without inducing shake.

3. With my right index finger, point straight along the frame under the slide, where it will remain safe until ready to fire.

4. With my right ring finger, grasp with some strength, but less than the middle finger.

5. With my right pinkie, grasp but with absolutely minimal strength.

Left Hand:

1. Left hand comes around the right hand and they create dynamic tension to reduce muzzle flip, but not trying to fight the flip.

2. Rotate the left wrist slightly down (this is a part I could use help with).

3. Left thumb points forward and goes underneath and forward of the right thumb. Again, not much pressure with the thumb, just get both thumbs to point at the target. Sometimes (say.... dryfiring) I play with the amount of pressure on both thumbs to try to steady the gun or counteract my down / left shots.

4. All my other left fingers wrap around my right hand creating dynamic tension, but nothing to cause shake.


Index finger trigger work:

1. Use the pad of my index finger. Depending on the gun, I experiment with dry firing, and try to find a sweet spot. Sometimes that sweet spot is actually the (sp?) distal joint (first knuckle).

2. Pull back slowly on the trigger and wait for the proverbial glass rod to break. Let it suprise you. Use breath control.

3. PRACTICE DRY FIRING! Watch those sights for twitch.


Obliviously, there is a whole art to what I am trying to distill into basic steps here. I am hoping for a pro to come along and fill in the blanks. I wouldn't be blathering about my medicore / poor groups if I didn't think I had something to learn. Even learning to dig a ditch with a shovel could take a lifetime to master.
 
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Note that the thumb-over thumb grip is the "revolver grip" most folks refer to; because flame cuts hurt.
 
4-6" groups at 7 yards with a few flyers are the norm.
Click to expand...

Without meaning to be rude, grip isn't your problem, or at least not the majority of it. If your sights are lined up and stay lined up during the trigger pull, your groups will be much better than they are. IMO, grip is a distant number three in the "stuff you need to work on" list, the first two being sights and trigger.

The pistol shooter's "bible" is the US Army Marksmanship Unit manual. It is available in online form in a great number of places. This is the first one that comes up via Yahoo search. Study and implement chapters one through three and you will be an above-average pistolero.

HTH!
 
i agree, take a class from a good school, such as tactical response, or tdi ohio. they will square you away and in alot more ways that you probally thought or expected, they will be able to set you straight and you will learn alot more about alot more in the process.

www.tacticalresponse.com
or check out the forum at www.getoffthex.com
 
With all due respect to .38 Special (Post #5) All quality pistol shooting starts with the grip. The rest goes from there.

Now, I agree that the OP has more problems than just grip. But without proper grip one goes nowhere - that's why competition shooters place the pistol into the shooting hand with the opposite hand.

Defensive - or offensive - shooters, obviously, don't have that luxury. But repeatable grip of the handgun determines to a great extent where the bullet is going to strike for it aids in on target sight alignment and handgun pointability.
 
If you really wanted to fight, I'd argue that "All quality pistol shooting starts with stance". :neener:

But that'd be wrong too. There are several things that need to be right for "Quality pistol shooting". Grip is one of them. But when you are making four to six inch groups -- discounting "flyers", apparently -- the problem simply is not grip, unless you are holding the gun upside-down in your teeth.

I'd bet the OP is looking at the target instead of the sights, and is probably flinching too. That's the most realistic explanation for six inch seven yard groups. Grip may eventually become something for him to worry about, but at the moment it's like worrying about a carpet stain in a house that's on fire.

IMO, of course...
 
I'd bet the OP is looking at the target instead of the sights
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That's my bet. He should be focusing on the FRONT sight with the rear and target blurry. 99 times out of 100, that's the reason for large and inconsistent groups at close range.
 
.38 Special:

Point taken: ... stance... grip... front sight...squeeze (controlled press)... surprise break.... (Better?) :)
 
I am a stock crawler when it comes to grips.
Admited my eye suck, but if I don't get a consistent spot weld on my pistol stock, I don't get a good group. So i'm adjusting the sights to the different points of impact.
Now i'm shooting at the ten ring on a fifty foot bullseye target.
Your having problems with seven yards.
By chance do you suffer from any past injury of the neck, spine or firing side shoulder?
My best results are with very light triggers and a relaxed mind. Keeping a firm grip on a stock and firearm that is balanced and shaped to return to the same spot after recoil.
I have dealt with this and my scores reflect moods, muscle tension, being tense etc.
My scores don't reflect the work I have put into this mess.
Git rid of the average trigger.
 
You need some shooting lessons.

The fact that you are shooting 4-6" groupings a 7-yards and also have 'fliers" means you have never learned the fundamentals of shooting.

Spend a few hundred on a weekend course, you will learn more than just throwing lead downrange for a couple of years. Shooting is easy to learn, difficult to master.

Lastly, I would grip a $400 RIA the same as I would my $900 Dan Wesson (the most expensive DW is $1400 btw). My grip would be the same for IPDA, IPSC and any 'social' shooting engagements. Consistency is part of the solution.
 
Op edit: Please read my original post edit! I spent some time explaining what I actually DO know, so perhaps some folks can help me with beyond the fundamentals. Or correct my misguidedness.
 
Teaching shooting is hard to do via Internet.

Dubious, where do you live? Maybe a THRer close to you can work with you one on one.
 
I teach several dozen new shooters each year, and work with an equal number of experienced but only moderately accomplished shooters each year. The no. 1 issue I see with people who are poor shots is simply this; they are afraid of the gun. The degree of fear or apprehension varies widely, the physical manifestations of the fear, ie., the specific bad habit(s) they develop due to the fear vary considerably also. However, the root problem in an overwhelming number of cases is fear of the gun.

Front sight, trigger press, follow through. That is all there is to hitting at reasonable defensive distances. All issues that prevent hits are due to mental error (usually fear) manifest in physical "problems," such as pushing the gun, closing the eyes, yanking the trigger, turning the head, leaning back more with each shot, cupping the gun with the off hand, crossing the thumbs behind the gun, etc.

There is a progressive method for fixing the fear issue.
First, the shooter must learn to recognize what their body is objecting to. Often it is either the loud noise or sudden motion towards the face, or both.

Second, the shooter must learn to rely on the history. The gun is always loud and always moves suddenly towards the face. However, it does not hurt me and these characteristics, despite what natural instincts tell me, are not associated with impending injury or pain. I do not need to react defensively to them, NOR prepare defensively in ANTICIPATION of them.

Third, the shooter should ingrain in muscle and cognitive memory the proper process of front sight, press, follow through. Using a 22lr handgun is excellent for this. A revolver is unequaled in value for this type of drill because it is faster to single load and had a more deliberate trigger process in double action.

Fourth, the shooter should graduate from the 22lr to a defensive handgun. However, the shooter should not load complete magazines and blaze away. I teach shooters to load a single round, front sight, squeeze follow through. Then load another single round and repeat. Do this for the entire shooting session. This insures focus on each step of the process repeatedly. Then load two rounds, etc.

There are other drills that are helpful, such as loading dummy rounds in a revolver unbeknownst to the shooter so you and they can see exactly what they are doing at the time they pull the trigger. This is graphic and often embarrassing for the shooter, particularly men. But it will leave no doubt as to the mental basis for the misses in many cases. The same can be done with an auto by simply telling the shooter you will load the gun for them so they do not know how many shots they have, then simply hand them an empty gun.

This post may seem offensive to the OP but it is not meant to be so. The simple fact is handguns frighten many people, even a lot of people who own and shoot them regularly. It is not so much a conscious fear, but a subconscious apprehension and it does adversely effect shooting ability in a lot of people. Hitting reasonable objects to 40-50 yards with a typical 1911 is not a difficult task physically for a healthy person with good eye sight. The challenge is nearly always mental.

A word on triggers. A lot of space is spent on triggers in forums, and shooters blame a lot of poor shooting on triggers. Rubbish. A nice trigger is nice. A nice trigger is in no way essential to hitting any reasonable target. I have rifles with triggers that literally measure 15lbs in pull weight. These are old blackpowder cartridge rifles with big, heavy external hammers and slow locktimes. After 20 shots my trigger finger hurts. I have gone 99 for 101 shots offhand, 100 yards on a 9-inch steel plate in one day of shooting with one of these rifles, simple iron sights, not peeps. The gun is a 45-70, load uses a 523gr. bullet. People need to stop blaming triggers for poor shooting. Same goes for handguns, trigger weight, type, etc. mean nothing when it comes to hitting reasonable targets at reasonable distances, competition excluded of course as that is a matter of being time competitive rather than practical accuracy in most cases.
Regards.
 
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I spent some time explaining what I actually DO know, so perhaps some folks can help me with beyond the fundamentals. Or correct my misguidedness.
Click to expand...

Okay. Went back and read your edit. And being as you probably already hate me, I've got nothing to lose...

You may know the fundamentals, but I don't think you're applying them. Six inch groups at seven yards signify serious issues with the fundamentals. If you are getting "tight" groups with a light/worked on trigger, then the issue is obviously trigger pull rather than grip. Or perhaps there is something horrendously wrong with the gun itself. Either way, you are still worried about the carpet stain in the burning house.

But I'll butt out now. Hopefully you'll find what you're looking for -- and hopefully what you're looking for is what you need to find, too. :)
 
.38 Special and Law Boy - No hard feelings, I mean it! I appreciate your posts, your advice would apply to most new shooters. I've only been shooting a couple of years, but I've studied very hard and shot with a fair amount of pros at my Shooting Club and elsewhere. A flinch is easy to spot. I've always been called out on that when I did it, so I worked it out. Other things, like the amount of pressure I'm applying with each of my fingers is not.

I have a wide range of handguns from .22 to .44 mag. I know when I'm flinching and when I'm not. If I start to flinch, I switch over to my .22 and get the flinchies worked out. I can get 1-2" groups with my Ruger Redhawk with a sweet trigger or my heritage .22 rough rider (also suprisingly with a sweet trigger). My Springfield 1911 Custom and my Taurus PT-111 Mil Pro (SA / DA), however, are different birds. One day I will get a sweet drop in sear for my 1911, but in the mean time, let's improve my shooting skills and teach me to shoot with 5lb triggers.

That said, I think there is some aspect of the grip that I have yet to perfect. It just becomes more obvious when I have a stout trigger pull. Ayoob Massad has a bit about how when we pull on the trigger we are "milking". If you hold your shooting hand out in an open grip, look at your fingers. As you squeeze back your index finger, your middle finger and ring finger are going to move too. My guess is this is my problem. On stronger triggers, the effect is going to be more pronounced. I'm hoping that by learning the correct grip for me I can eliminate this effect.

Anyways, I will someday get some more pro training, but I have other real life priorities right now. However, I'm not opposed to scouring the internet trying to teach myself that knowledge.
 
I am at a loss then. I can literally (have done so) close my eyes and empty a revolver or auto into 4 inches or less at 7yrds. I don't know how to help you. Regards.
 
You first want precision; then you can get accuracy. If zen is acheived, you will be focusing on the front sight hovering steadily on the target, and the trigger will break in a mildly surprising fashion, because you were gradually squeezing, but focusing on the sight picture.

Dry-fire will probably help. Do lots of it. Make sure to use the pad of your finger, not the crook or the tip. Consistency breeds precision. Do the same thing over and over, until you get a measureable group. When that group is precise, worry accuracy. You can't adjust anything and get accuracy. You adjust you for precision, and then the gun for accuracy.
 
That said, I think there is some aspect of the grip that I have yet to perfect. It just becomes more obvious when I have a stout trigger pull. Ayoob Massad has a bit about how when we pull on the trigger we are "milking". If you hold your shooting hand out in an open grip, look at your fingers. As you squeeze back your index finger, your middle finger and ring finger are going to move too. My guess is this is my problem. On stronger triggers, the effect is going to be more pronounced. I'm hoping that by learning the correct grip for me I can eliminate this effect.
Click to expand...

This is a valid observation, IMO. There are several approaches to curing this; my favorite is the Gripmaster. This is a grip exerciser with a separate spring loaded pad for each finger. I use it by applying the appropriate amount of grip pressure to each pad (75-90% pressure with the middle finger, 10-25% with the ring finger, 0% with the pinkie) and then squeezing and releasing the trigger finger pad while watching that the other pads do not move. This has helped -- but we are talking maybe ten extra points in a 600 point match, not the difference between six inch groups and two inch groups at close range.
 
Check out the forums at brianenos.com. The IPSC/USPSA guys, particularly the ones who get called "grandmasters" have a very good claim to being the best pistol shooters in the world. And they seem to have proven that the modified isoceles works extremely well. I'm not aware of anyone who's won a major match using any other technique in the last ten years at least.

As far as specifics of your grip, it sounds like you're choking the gun too much. Try a LOT less, and more even pressure pressure with your strong hand, and let the weak hand squeeze the strong hand more. Anytime you grip unevenly with the various fingers, you're creating pressure "hotspots" that the gun torques around, throwing your shots. It's also extremely difficult to repeat such a complex grip.

~~~Mat
 
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