M1 carbine.. what if?

Daniel Watters gave me the memory boost I needed. He is describing EXACTLY what I remembered vaguely.

So, to answer the original poster's question that started this thread:

Somebody DID try to make a carbine into a firearm that had the ballistic characteristics of the later-developed AR-15. And they ran into the same barriers that the AR-15 would later reach.

The "30 caliber full power" cartridge proponents killed the modified carbine, just as the almost did with the AR. That's not to say that a modified carbine would not have been a good idea--it was just too advanced for its' day.

The Thompson SMG is also considered to be the first "assault rifle". A term I personally intensely dislike. There's battle rifles and everything else. You do not get issued a special rifle when assaulting a position. Nor do "assault troopies" have anything different issued.
"...Many personal weapons were sent over..." Your government made it illegal to import any Lend-Lease firearms. I suspect that any Lend-Lease kit was immediately written off by your bean counters as they waved goodbye from the wharf. Then there's the thousands of firearms sitting on the bottom of the Atlantic stil lin their shipping containers.
As to trusting the Brits. Your lot hasn't exactly been trustworthy over the years either. Every treaty ever made with the native tribes was broken. Your lot abandoned the South Vietnamese and the Shah of Iran along with numerous other former allies, kidnapped Noreiga, and tried to invade Cuba. And your lot if currently ignoring the NAFTA treaty your lot made with us because some issues don't work in your favour. A treaty with your lot is only good as long as it works in favour of the US. As soon as it doesn't your lot ignores it. Trust? No.

Oh, Oh.... Somebody pissed off a Canadian. Seriously thought, I have several Lend Lease gun's, With importers stamps on them. This is the first Ive heard about "our goverment" banning importation of lend lease gun's; at leaste any time before the Klinton era? I think the attack on the Brits was unfair, however their Goverments position on Gun's is indefenceable, and allway's has been. I even used to have a Brit proofed M-1 Carbine, and my dad has a Garand. P.S. NAFTA was another Klinton deal, if anyone thinks the current admin gives a rat's @$% about all his sell out's their kidding themselves. And I'm not even a Republican.

Jshirley -

Is that some sort of SKS predecessor/variant?

Sure looks similar...

Was it chambered in 7.62x39?

Federov Avtomat 6.5 Japanese. Predates em mall, IIRC. Sumpin like 1920 or so...

What if you took the M1 Carbine round and necked it down to .25 caliber? And maybe beefed up the rifles action just a little bit so you could load it to higher pressure? You could used bullets like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/rewriteaproduct/580248

I bet that would be one heck of a round, maybe ever better than .223?

M1 Carbine

I've owned carbines since 1968, and love them for what they are-fun guns for informal plinking at the range, or for close-in defensive purposes. They are not big-game hunting weapons, and, because most states consider only rimfires or shotguns as legal small game weapons, they are only used here in GA to shoot unprotected species such as armadillos, beavers, or coyotes: all of which we now have in great abundance. I would think it would be a great choice for nutria in Louisiana, or rats at the local dumps. I have devoted a lot of time at the range with the "WAR BABY", and it is a great gun for the youngsters who are stepping up to centerfires from rimfires. With practice, a shooter can tear up a small target at 100 yards. If anyone out there bought a .30 M1 Carbine and is now disenchanted, PLEASE contact me immediately. I will buy your carbine if it is in very good+condition. I have owned carbines in the military and civilian versions. The military versions are definitely preferred, as Universal, Iver Johnson, and Plainfield versions used pot metal cast trigger housings. But they are potentially more accurate than most shooters can hold. By the way, the M1 Carbine was the favorite weapon to "liberate" from the military, and would fit neatly in a GI dufflebag. Again, I would love to take a carbine off your hands.....

The germans get credit for the assault rifle, but I think that the Italians came up with the idea in the early 1900's. Something tells me it was called a Cei Regotti and it was chambered for a 6.5mm round. I am pretty sure it was select fire.

I remember reading somewhere that the M-1 Carbine was produced in secret for sometime after the M-16 was standard issue. IIRC, some special forces soldiers in Vietnam preferred it because of its small size and light weight and its reliability.

Cei regotti

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Probably just a little better than 32 ACP in actual effectiveness.

Click to expand...

71 grain .32 ACP:
Muzzle velocity: 900fps
Muzzle energy: 129 ft/lbs

110 grain .30 Carbine:
Muzzle velocity: 1990fps
Muzzle energy: 967 ft/lbs

Paper ballistics or no paper ballistics, this is pure kinetic energy we're talking about. Twice as much MV and six times as much ME is more than a "little better" in my book.

Devonai

I am assuming you are getting your MV/ME out of a reloading manual of some type. I suspect it may be apples and oranges in the Carbines favor-longer barrel and all. MV/ME is pretty good for the M-1, but I suspect due to the BC that they run out of steam pretty quick.
Maybe a 100-150 yard small to small-medium game getter? Energy wise, I think the Carbine comes closer to a good 38 special load so far as hitting anything from a distance.

Gunguy56; what the heck is a nutria? Personally I'm not disinchanted with any of my carbines, you just have to recognize the power of the cartrige and the rifles desighn intent. Keeping these things under consideration, it's a good piece. However, it splits me to no end when people try to compaire them to a battle/assault rifle. They will never make the grade; and were'nt suppose to. Compare them to a pistol, and you have a winner every time. Another downside of the M-1 carb. is that the surplus ammo has basically dried up; so if your too lazy to reload for milsurp rifles, (ME)they usually stay in the safe. I'll hang on to mine just for the collector value. You might consider picking up a marlin camp carbine in 9mm, for the kid's; wallyworld sells win. ball for about $10=100rds. Really WHAT is A Nutria?

nutria

A nutria is a muskrat-like rodent; a 15-25 pound rat thing. Sounds like an excellent target!

George

Man a 25lb Rat! WOW, Those guy's down South need to be ISSUED Ak's

This argument is as old as the rifle. My dad was a radio operator in WW2
in the 82nd Airborne Glider Infantry. He told me that as soon as he could, he would get rid of his carbine and get a M1 Garand. As well as I can tell this was the feeling of most of his buddies too.

Nutrias arn't just in the south, we have them here in Oregon also...

What an interesting thread!

I always knew the M1 Carbine was controversial!!
Yes, to the fact it is not a battle rifle!
I consider it the MP-5 of WW2, a fair close quarters battle tool, a PDW before the term was ever coined.
They ran into problems when they tried all the variables...the folding stock, the 30 round mags, full auto conversion, grenade launcher(?), etc.
In full auto, the M2 cyclic rate was high enough, if you missed with the first shot or two, you were not gonna hit nothing but air.
I spoke to veterans of various conflicts too.
A gentleman who trudged through the hell of the Chinese/Burma/Inda Theatre with Gen. Stillwell.....he loved the Carbine.
A man I met in my Alaskan youth spent three years in 'Nam 63-66 and love the carbine...apparently he taught alot of indiginous troops and they had whole platoons armed with little else running around the jungle. Doing 'hit and get' ambushes. The Carbine fit the Indig's perfectly.
I remeber hearing that alot of Germans picked up Carbines during the Battle of the Bulge...but I think I'd rather have one as a Personal defense weapon rather than a long heavy bolt action too.
And I remember the New York Stakeout Unit of Cirrillo fame, apparently used M1 loaded with soft/hollow points for a time. Remember reading that NOTHING else they used had better one shot stopping power at CQB.
I have shot them, they are nifty. But I have not and never will own one. My preferred CQB rifle, is the one in between the M1 and AR....called an AK. Not it was not the first assault rifle.......but no one can argue that it is not the most prolific.
JShirley...thanks for pics of the federov.
Bashing the Brits? Why, they made their stand! They needed alittle help from their friends...so what? It was a time of great extremes and daring and stress. If the Brits did not hold out, and we did not help...we would probably be speaking Russian right now!
And Sunray, the PO'd Canadian has valid points.....we Americans slant things OUR way...the treaties we sign are only good until we decide that we do not want to follow them anymore. Then we toss them in the low tech circular file cabinet.
The M1 carbine was never designed as a battle or assault rifle. It was a more effective weapon for 2nd and third echelon troops that MAY require something better than a pistol. That is was light, handy and got used alot...hey, it was war....you use what you got available. The American philosophy of the time was pick a few designs that worked OK and make tons of them!!! Simplified mass production for a two front war. From Jeeps, to that silly Sherman tank(blah!), Liberty ships, escort carriers, M1 Garand and Carbine.
It was a effective tool, and has alot of combat experience behind it! I am sure it is still being used somewhere for killing human's.....african, asia...wherever.
A rant is done...

Jercamp45