Best to Worst AR15 list

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these threads get worse every time I read them. The closest answer that I found to be true was this:

1. Mine

2. Yours

This is how everyone sees their rifles and this is the only response you will get on these forums.
 
i'll openly admit i don't have what i consider to be the best rifle out there. i can't understand why it always has to turn into a p......ing match. some are better than others. so what. as long what you have works for you, that's what counts.
 
flyin-
notice the first reply in tim's thread asking about the 6920? if only i had known how little timmy was going to end up.:banghead:
 
One that I haven't seen mentioned yet it the White Oak Arms

This is a top gun

http://www.whiteoakprecision.com/uppers-service.htm

You said adding goodies later on. They are known for Service Rifles for the high precision HighPower guys. I guess any goodies can be added on at any time.

White Oak is considered top grade among these shooters.

Yes, but White Oak doesn't have a reputation amongst the mall-ninja-save-us-all-from-the-blue-helmeted-communist-zombie-bears crowd or even a chart to show how awesome it is for the mpi tesing of its stock vent screw.

Besides, nobody buys a White Oak rifle to spray a 1/2 case of wolf downrange 2 or 3 times a year then brag about how cool their awesome their rifle is on this site for the the rest of the year.
 
Ive owned an olympic arms k16 and was very happy with it, I shot over 5000 rounds through it and didnt have one single problem and didnt require much cleaning either, also own a bushmaster carbine and so far havn't had any issues with that either, in my opinion both good guns for 99% of us
 
flyin-
notice the first reply in tim's thread asking about the 6920? if only i had known how little timmy was going to end up.


lol, omg!!!!!!!!!!!

i never noticed it was you that told him that!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol, thats good stuff right there man.

you created a monster.

(i guess i must admit his colt knowledge, two months old or not, at least came from a reasonable source)
 
1. Noveske
2. LMT
3. BCM
4. Colt
5. Sabre
6. Charles Daly
7. S&W
8. CMMG
9. Stag
10. Bushmaster
11. Rock River
12. DPMS
13. Doublestar
14. Olympic

LOL 1/2 of those ARS are just re-branded.

you have S&W over Stag.... Stag makes most of S&W parts for them.

you have Bushmaster over DPMS... both of those brands AND Remington are owned by Cerberus.

An AR is an AR is an AR. You wont see a difference unless you are comparing something like an Olympic to a Noveske. Anything in the middle is REALLY splitting hairs.
 
At risk of seeming like an argumentative jerk(I swear i am not trying to be), that link didn't change my mind a bit.

If I actually believed that I would be able to discern a difference between 4140 and 4150 steel, I would pay for it. Maybe if I had a RDIAS.

I paid extra to get a MPI bolt and carrier when I built my ar. Does it matter? Probably not.

I appreciate quality and I am willing to pay for it. But I'm not seeing a big difference here.

Maybe it's because I am coming from a position of assembling my own instead of trusting a manufacturer. In that case I can see a small case to be made for the colt premium.

I guess I just see it as nit-picky. I haven't been able to witness the catastrophic failure of a non-colt or LMT bolt, despite my best efforts to run my ar to death.


But hey. To each his own and may all your barrels be parked under the FSB. ;)
 
indiana-
the thread i linked to talked about the fact that all parts are not created equal. aside from if you buy into the TDP specs, certain mfrs may be using lesser quality parts than others. not trying to change your mind, just pointing out the info.

as you mentioned, most of it probably won't make a difference to you one way or the other. but to some it can. there are those that buy the high dollar "chart approved" colts so they can feel warm and fuzzy, and then there are those that care about the specs because they run their guns hard at carbine training courses or purchase their own patrol carbines.

if you talk to some of the guys that run carbine courses, most will tell you any and all guns break. but the ones lower on the list posted earlier generally break alot quicker. for my intended use i couldn't even fathom breaking a bolt carrier, but it has happened in carbine courses.

as you say, to each his own. some people get sick of hearing colt,colt,colt. i get tired of hearing people say that all ars are created equal, especially when there is so much info out there to the contrary. i'm not about to say that this or that ar is junk (except for H/V), most do what the owners want, and the owners that want more simply upgrade.
 
To the OP, use the search feature. The "what is the best AR" threads come up about once a week with the same lines being drawn and the same people arguing the same points.

Educate yourself. Don't just accept the charity fish, teach yourself to fish and feed yourself for life. Learn to do your own research and it will serve you well throughout life. (and no, posting a question on an internet discussion board does not qualify as "research").

The Chart that has been linked to here is my creation. It continues to elicit much wailing and gnashing of teeth. The response by some often reminds me of Lind Blair in the Exorcist.

More important to the chart, and relative to teaching you how to fish, is the explanation of features that goes with it. Read it, understand it, and decide for yourself which of the features is important to you and seek out a carbine that has those features.

Reprinted here for your convenience.
Without the information in the explanations below, The Chart(s) on the following tabs of this file are all but worthless. It is critical, when considering an M4-pattern carbine, to ensure that you understand the list of features and can figure out for yourself if a specific feature is applicable to your intended use. If a sufficient number of the features below and on The Chart are not applicable to your use, then perhaps an M4-pattern carbine is not the right choice for you.

So, what is an M4-pattern carbine? The true M4 is a select-fire military-issue shortened version of the M16 with a collapsible stock, 14.5" barrel, and flat-top upper (with Picatinny rail system) in place of the old A2 carry handle. obviously what we are discussing here are non-NFA firearms which means that they are not select-fire and have a barrel length of at least 16".

Bolt Carrier Group
The first six items listed on the chart pertain to the bolt and/or carrier, commonly referred to as the "Bolt Carrier Group" or BCG. This is the part that moves back and forth in the upper receiver chambering fresh rounds, extracting and ejecting empty rounds, and generally ensuring that your rifle or carbine operates as it should. As such, in terms of reliability, the BCG is the heart of the gun, and having as high a quality BCG that is assembled correctly out of the correct materials and which has been properly checked for flaws is key to the continued reliability of the AR-platform firearm. The first four items refer to the bolt itself, while the remaining two deal with the carrier.

Shot Peened Bolt
There are many resources available online as to the exact process and how it affects the structure of the part at the molecular level, but essentially the goal is to increase the resistance of metal to fatigue. The bolt, in the performance of it's duties, is put under a considerable amount of stress as the gun fires. Ensuring that this part lasts as long as possible is key to the continued reliability of the firearm over time, and increasing the resistance of the part to fatigue increases it's service life.
More information on shot peening can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_peening

High Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
This is also sometimes referred to as "proof loading" or "proof firing". Essentially it is a test fire of the bolt (and barrel) in order to subject the part to a pressure that could cause it to fail in use. This is a preparatory step in order to prepare the part for the next step. Not all companies perform this step and prefer to "batch test" their bolts and barrels, or to test a representative sample of each batch.
More information on proof testing can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test

Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Bolt
Like shot peening, there are resources available online as to what the exact process is and how it works, but the intended purpose is to check for surface cracks in the part that may not be detectable by the naked eye and that may have been caused by the HPT. Not all companies perform this step and prefer to "batch test" their bolts and barrels, or to test a representative sample of each batch. This is a crucial step following the HPT in order to observe the results.
More information on MPI can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_particle_inspection

Black Extractor Spring Insert
The crucial element here is, in fact, the 5-coil extractor spring which the black insert indicates as there is some debate as to the actual chemical or physical properties of the insert itself as compared to the rifle version which comes with the 4-coil spring and is blue. The shorter gas system of the carbine makes for a sooner an more violent operation of the BCG which can cause the extractor on the bolt to jump over the rim of the case and not properly extract the empty case. To some degree this can be mitigated by gas port size, but beefing up the spring tension to cause the extractor to clamp more tightly on the case ensures proper function.
More information on extractor springs and inserts can be found here
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14310

M16 Bolt Carrier
The M16 bolt carrier serves two functions. The first is that the firing pin is fully shrouded so that the hammer is cocked by the carrier and not the firing pin itself. The second is that the M16 bold carrier is heavier and therefore increases "lock time" (or the amount of time that the empty case after the primer is struck by the firing pin) which aids in extraction. The heavier carrier also reduces the felt recoil impulse which in turn reduces wear and tear on the other internal parts of the carbine.
More information on M16 vs. AR15 carriers can be found here
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14534

Properly Staked Gas Key
The gas key on top of the bolt carrier is the part that the gases (which have been re-directed through the gas port, then the gas block or front sight base, and into the gas tube) impact on in order to push back on the carrier, unlock the bolt and cycle the firearm. As such it is under tremendous pressure and is critical to the continued operation of the firearm. The key is held on to the top of the carrier by two screws, typically allen but sometimes torx, that are tightened to a specified torque. After tightening the metal of the key should be "staked" in such a way as to prevent the screws from loosening. In order for the staking to perform it's job properly it must deform the metal of the key sufficiently to make contact with, and perhaps even deform a bit, the attachment screws. Use of Locktite is not sufficient, as virtually all versions of Locktite are weakened by heat.
More information on staking of carrier keys can be found here
http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6993

Barrel
The barrel rivals the bolt in terms of how critical it is to the long term reliability and functionality, as well as accuracy of the firearm. Clearly, accuracy may be sacrificed to some degree in favor of longevity in terms of a chromoly and chrome-lined barrel. The features that are included in the barrel section, the next eight items on the chart, are all related to the longevity of the barrel as well as the reliability of the firearm, with some features being somewhat optional as they pertain to use of certain projectiles and other shooter-defined needs.

Milspec Barrel Steel
No term used in the chart has elicited more of a negative reaction than "milspec". As such every effort has been made to remove it from The Chart wherever possible. In the case of the barrel, however, it remains. The short version of the story is that barrels are typically made from two grades of chromoly steel, 4140 and 4150, with the latter being a slightly higher grade that withstands heat slightly better than the former. The long version involves very specific types of steel, much longer numbers, and is in fact generally considered to be of little consequence. There are, however, other grades and/or types of steel that meet or exceed the properties of 4150 and are therefore acceptable.
More information on barrel steel can be found here
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=7263

High Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
This means the same thing, and is done for the same reason, as the HPT of the bolt.

Magnetic Particle Inspection (MPI) Barrel
This means the same thing, and is done for the same reason, as the MPI of the bolt.

Chrome Chamber and Bore
Chrome-lining of the chamber and bore serve to protect both from corrosion due to the heat of combustion of the gunpowder in the bullet as well as "neglect" in humid or other harsh environments. The chamber and bore are directly related to the accuracy potential of a firearm, and damage to either in the form of pitting will negatively impact the accuracy potential. The trade off is that chrome is often applied unevenly, at the microscopic level, meaning that it may negatively affect the accuracy potential in and of itself. The potential for damage due to other factors is generally considered greater than the small amount of uneven application, and so chrome-lining is generally considered desirable. No, it cannot be added after the fact as barrels intended for chrome-lining are first slightly overbored with the lining then reducing the internal diameter to the proper dimension.

5.56 Chamber
There is a common misconception that .223 and 5.56 are the same thing. They are not. 5.56 is often loaded to a higher pressure, among other things, which is the most critical issue. There are other dimensional differences pertaining to throat, bullet seat, etc. but what it comes down to in practical terms is that you can shoot .223 in a 5.56 chamber but the reverse is not a good idea. Generally speaking the barrel will be marked with one or the other but unfortunately those markings cannot always be trusted. If you think you may ever shoot 5.56 ammunition it is a good idea to get a 5.56 chamber from a maker that can be trusted.
More information about chamber dimensions can be found here
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

1:7 Rifling Twist
Another common misconception is that bullet weight determines the optimal rifling twist. This is incorrect in that it is actually bullet (projectile) length that should be used to determine the twist rate. Generally speaking, however, the heavier bullets are also longer so while technically incorrect it is common to say that a 1:7 twist is more desirable for the heavier 75 and 77 grain projectiles. Therefore, choosing a barrel twist really comes down to first choosing your projectile weight, and more correctly, length. If you work for a department that mandates or issues a certain ammunition then this should be your guide when choosing a rifling twist rate. A good rule of thumb is that 1:9 will stabilize bullets in the 45 to 62 grain range, and 1:7 will stabilize bullets in the 55 to 77 grain range. Like all things this is not a given, and any barrel should be tested with the intended ammunition to ensure the desired results are achieved.
More information about rifling twist and ammunition selection can be found here
http://www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

M4 Feedramps
M4 feedramps refers to the feed ramps in the barrel extension being matched up to feed ramps cut into the upper receiver. The alternative is Rifle feedramps which stop at the end of the barrel extension and do not continue into the upper receiver. Longer projectiles, soft-point projectiles, and carbines with faster cyclic rates tend to benefit from the extended M4 feedramps. There are no known downsides to having the extended feedramps.
More information on feedramps can be found here
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=193

"F" Height Front Sight Base
Front sight bases come in two basic varieties. One is the front sight base intended for use on carbines and rifles with fixed A2 uppers,the other (The "F") is intended for carbines with flattop uppers. In order to ensure compatibility with the various aftermarket rear back up iron sights, the "F" is more desirable. Not all "F" height front sight bases are marked with the "F" (LMT for example), and some that are marked are not true to the correct height.
More information on front sight bases can be found here
http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=14753

Taper Pins at Front Sight Base (FSB)
A minor issue, but taper pins hold the front sight base better and tighter than a straight pin. Some makers attempt to make up for this by using slightly oversized straight pins that can be extremely difficult to remove.
More information on taper pins can be found here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taper_pin

Parkerize under FSB
Parkerizing under the front sight base (or FSB) is done by very few makers. Most prefer to attach the base to the barrel and then parkerize the assembly as a whole. If parkerized as an assembly, both the outside of the barrel under the rings of the base and the inside of the rings themselves do not get the protective coating of the parkerizing process. There have been some reports of these parts rusting in the unprotected area, but it is unlikely that rust in these locations will affect the function of the carbine.

Double Heat Shield Handguards
Obviously this is not an issue of the end user intends to replace the handguards with an aftermarket part, but the proper M4 handguards are larger and contain a dual-layer of aluminum heat shields inside each half. The added diameter and extra shield serve to keep the shooter's hands cooler over prolonged periods of fire.

Receiver Extension
The receiver extension is the part of the rifle, often mistakenly called the "buffer tube" that extends out from the back of the lower receiver. It not only holds the stock on the rifle but also does act as a tube for the buffer and bolt carrier to move back and forth inside of when the rifle cycles. This receiver extension is held in place by a castle nut which also holds the receiver end plate in plate, which in turn holds a spring and detent in place inside the lower.

1.14" Diameter Receiver Extension
This is often referred to as the "milspec" receiver extension. The alternative to a "milspec" receiver extension is the "civilian" or "commercial" receiver extension. There is some debate as to whether or not the milspec extension is actually stronger or "better" than the commercial, but for most users the real choice comes down to availability of aftermarket stocks. Some companies, like Magpul with their CTR stock, offer versions for both extensions, but many do not. If you know that your intended stock is available for the commercial receiver extension or if you are happy with the stock your rifle comes with it is most likely not an issue. If, however, you want to change the stock or just keep your options open then the milspec extension is preferred.
Dimensions for a "milspec" receiver extension can be found here /url] http://www.magpul.co...n Colt may prove difficult. [/quote]
 
heres another chart i dont know if its the same or not but it has a couple more brands in it. Personaly ill only coment on what i own and have owned. My first choise would be a colt, rra-dpms-bush-rem-smith are all about a toss. YOu couldnt sell me another oly. Theres some top end guns that may be a tad better then a colt but my colts just dont ever miss a beat and have all been very accurate and i guess i cant see what the extra 300 bucks or so buys me.
 

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Lloyd that is an older version of the one earlier in the thread, and it' actually my favorite version to date, but...

I generally prefer that people use the google doc and not the image files as the google doc ALWAYS both comes with and starts on the explanation of features, which is really the important part.
 
I feel like I should mention that I appreciate the efforts of rob_s and others who have shared all the information about ARs. They did influence my build.
 
cracked butt said:
Yes, but White Oak doesn't have a reputation amongst the mall-ninja-save-us-all-from-the-blue-helmeted-communist-zombie-bears crowd

That is Fantastic! I will have to keep that in mind.
 
I have a Del-Ton 20" HBAR with flat top upper. Whats the general consensus of opinions on the quality of these guns? It seems to work perfect so far so my question isn't very critical, but i'm just curious. -Sorry if my grammar sucks right now, I feel terrible.
 
I feel like I should mention that I appreciate the efforts of rob_s and others who have shared all the information about ARs. They did influence my build.
same here man. :)
Im building my second AR right now and have had help picking out the critical parts by people like rob_s. oh and that flat top upper I got, the one with no forward assist or dust cover is a DPMS. not top notch but its just the stripped upper, no biggy. Im going to swap it with my bench rifle (BM) so I can have the forward assist and dust cover on carry rifle and the dpms on my bench rifle.
 
The best AR is the one you can FIND to buy.

I found a S&W MP 15 OCR at Gander three weeks ago. Now there is one (1) Remington R-15 in 204 Ruger. Its been there awhile.

That said, in NYS your best bets are a S&W MP15 (sorry, no flash hider or telescopic stock); or if you can find a pre-ban lower, you can get a Noveske upper-($1,250 and up) Noveske suspended selling whole ARs, but with a pre-ban lower, you can have a flash hider AND telescopic stock.

One caveat: The pre-ban lower must have been made into a complete rifle before Sept, 1994.

On a chart (available somewhere on the Internet) comparing how ARs are built, Colts are arguably best, and in my opinion, second place goes to S&W and Noveske. Remember, its just my opinion.:cool:

Colt plays games with civilian models...this makes things difficult for some upgrades, and I passed on the brand.
 
I have two DPMS AR-15's that shoot great and are so out of spec they've been been reliable too! ;)

(I'm kidding about them being out of spec DPMS builds good enough rifles for me!)

No doubt that the colt argument makes a lot of sence. The military put a lot of research and $$$ over the last 40+ years developing the spec and making sure their primary contractors build rifles to the quality they need.
 
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