Students assaulted at my campus.

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I'm not sure what that sentence was intended to ask ("put down...before someone...used deadly force...?"). However, it was proved in and by the event that, with the students unarmed, Cho gunned down several people.

Common sense would tell anyone that there would have been a greater likelihood of Cho's being stopped sooner, had armed persons been present.

back to the "what if" again....what are the chances of Cho encountering a student CCW'ing if CCW was allowed at Vtech? I mean this is trivial so hence my point. Cho could had never encountered a student CCW'ing. And it's one thing for someone to be CCW'ing but how do you know the person won't **** the bed and not use his gun to take out Cho. Hey, guys deploy overseas in the military, some **** the bed when they first come under fire for the first time. So again, if you want to do "what if" then go ahead...

Isn't that irrelevant? There were no police officers present when Cho started shooting. yeah I KNOW, there isn't police present at every spot you visit outside your house. Is that the logic to use to support CCW anywhere and everywhere?

Has anyone noticed that people attempt mass murders much less frequently in places in which guns are not permitted? lots of places don't permit guns LOL so yeah the statistics of a mass murder rampage happening at a gun range or police station will always be far less than at a bar or school, although here in VA we did have a knucklehead shoot up a police substation a few years back.
 
back to the "what if" again
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Is that anything like "what if students with CCWs binge drink?"

We KNOW that Cho INTENTIONALLY chose victims who were neither protected by police nor were permitted to protect themselves.

And your solution?

"More leaches!"
 
deanimator wrote: You seem to be saying that the age for a concealed firearm credential should be higher than it is. HOW high? 25? 30? 40?
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sernv wrote: Point out exactly where I indicated CWP age should be higher and I'll give you a cookie, otherwise reread the postings.
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sernv: What about the following? Is that cookie deal still available?

sernv wrote: I don't know how old you are, but a 21 year old is more prone to do something stupid out of emotions or anger than a 30 year old.
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This indicates to me that you would be more comfortable with a CCW age requirement of 30.

Regardless, anyone meeting the qualifications for CCW (whatever the age) should be able to CCW on a college campus. By what logic can you assert that a 21-year-old is somehow MORE dangerous on a campus than he is anywhere else?


I KNOW, there isn't police present at every spot you visit outside your house. Is that the logic to use to support CCW anywhere and everywhere?
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Well...now that you mention it...yeah.
 
yup still available but again point out exactly where I state CCW permits should have a higher age restriction.
 
I want cookies now. Damn that means I have to walk across campus to get to the store. Oh well I guess since I am a college student and I carry a gun a whole bunch of people are going to get shot. That's what I learned from this thread at least, that college students shouldn't be allowed to have guns. No need to think about things like being intoxicated and being in possession of a firearm is illegal, so it wouldn't matter if the college student had a CCW b/c it would be illegal! Only those that are not drunk could legally carry a gun. So, if having a gun is illegal and that stops students from having them, wouldn't it being illegal to be intoxicated and have a gun stop them from having the gun?
 
yup still available but again point out exactly where I state CCW permits should have a higher age restriction.
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1. Are 21 year olds mature enough to carry off campus? If so, why not ON campus?

2. If not OFF campus, at what age ARE they? What age ON campus?

It's clear that you are against "shall issue" CCW. It'd be nice if you'd be honest about it.
 
It's clear that you are against "shall issue" CCW. It'd be nice if you'd be honest about it.

I have stated my position to you already and to your other questions as well so anything else? If you still don't understand my position, reread, reread, reread.... Remember, it's on you to convince the state legislators to allow CCW on campuses in whatever state you live/go to school. By your logic, which some on here as turned into temper tantrums, I can see why this isn't moving foward at all within the state legislatures. If your debate tactic is "what if", I can do "what if" back all day long and so will the politicians. Seems like a hard pill to swallow for some on here, eh?:uhoh:
 
back to the "what if" again....So again, if you want to do "what if" then go ahead...
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I'm not sure why you insist on "what if" discussion. I certainly haven't offered any "what if" arguments.

...what are the chances of Cho encountering a student CCW'ing if CCW was allowed at Vtech?
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I don't know, but they would have been infinitely higher in terms of percentages than they were under the circumstances.

I mean this is trivial so hence my point. Cho could had never encountered a student CCW'ing.
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True. So what? As the event happened, that was a certainty. Had CCW been permitted, it would have been a mere possibility, and one on which a gunman could not count.

Where I live, the number of CCW-licensed civilians outnumbers the number of LEOs on the beat at any one time by over 30:1. It is much more likely that a criminal actor will encounter a civilian with a gun than a policeman.

yeah I KNOW, there isn't police present at every spot you visit outside your house. Is that the logic to use to support CCW anywhere and everywhere?
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Well, if police were present everywhere, I wouldn't carry. I would have no reason to.

lots of places don't permit guns LOL so yeah the statistics of a mass murder rampage happening at a gun range or police station will always be far less than at a bar or school,
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Precisely my point, as described here:

http://www.american-partisan.com/cols/brown/080800.htm

In spite of the fact that mass murders are very rare, Americans have been force fed innumerable images of these terrible crimes. Each media feeding frenzy includes a call for more laws. But do laws prohibiting guns in certain places really prevent Columbine-type tragedies? In a word, no.
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A striking paradox is associated with these mass murders. They are much more likely to occur in areas that have been designated as gun free zones.

Post Offices were the first buildings associated by the media with mass shootings, in this case by disgruntled workers who were said to "go postal". The fact that guns were prohibited in Post Offices was well publicized.

Office buildings, hospitals, convenience stores, TV studios, chain restaurants and day care centers have all been targets of crazed killers intent on running up a large score of victims before they finally kill themselves. All of these enterprises prevent employees from arming themselves, even if they have a state-issued license granting them that right.

Schools became popular targets for young mass murderers in the mid 1990s, around the time that the Gun Free School Zones act of 1994 was enacted. This law and similar local laws were targeted at gang related violence, but had the unfortunate consequence of making schools a more attractive target for disturbed teens who wanted to end their own lives with a dramatic killing spree.

In 1999, John Lott and William Landes published an extensive statistical study of multiple shooting incidents. They showed that mass shootings occur less often in areas where responsible citizens are allowed permits to carry weapons discretely.

Have you ever heard of a mass shooting in a police station, at a pistol range, or at a gun show? Suicidal mass murderers may be insane, but they are not necessarily stupid. They always select a soft target for their final acts of violence. This principle also
applies to many other types of crime.

Some corporate managers are aware of this situation and resist pressure to put up the "no guns allowed" sign. Even if company policy prevents employees from being armed, it is a mistake to publicize that fact.
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I have stated my position to you already and to your other questions as well so anything else?
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NO, you DIDN'T. You dissembled rather than give a direct answer. In fact, you seemed not to know what "shall issue" even MEANS.

Do you favor "shall issue" CCW, yes or no?

If 21 year olds are not "mature" enough to carry ON campus, are they mature enough to carry OFF campus? If so, WHY? If NOT, what age IS "mature" enough?
 
yup still available but again point out exactly where I state CCW permits should have a higher age restriction.
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Not so fast...

The cookie deal didn't require pointing out where you stated permits should have a higher age restriction.

The deal was to point out where you indicated the age should be higher.

Point out exactly where I indicated CWP age should be higher...
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From Merriam-Webster's Online Dictionary: Indicate: (c) to demonstrate or suggest the necessity or advisability of...

If you believe 21-year-olds are not mature enough to CCW on campus, then it is only logical to infer you believe they are not mature enough to CCW anywhere else.

It's OK to hold beliefs that differ from others - even here! So why not just say so?

On the other hand...If you believe that 21-year-olds ARE mature enough to CCW EXCEPT on a college campus - howdaya figger?
 
I can see why this isn't moving foward at all within the state legislatures.
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Bills were introduced at the end of last month in both houses of the Texas legislature. They are supported by the Governor of Texas.

They would only be binding in state universities. Private schools will be able to make their own rules.

While CCW in Texas is common, only a small number of undergraduates would be affected by the proposed change. CCW licenses are only issued to citizens who are 21 or older.
 
hey guys lets try to cut down on the sarcasm and talk of cookies! It's making me hungry and I gave up sweets for Lent.
The rest is very interesting, thanks for all the posts.
 
If you believe 21-year-olds are not mature enough to CCW on campus, then it is only logical to infer you believe they are not mature enough to CCW anywhere else.

oh I'm sorry, I forgot that on here, one person's inference equates to what exactly the other person stated. Did I say CCW age should be higher than 21? Must be something they teach in the public educational system these days.
 
CCW'ing on campus is something I don't support. 21 as an age for CCW? Yes, sure. A 21 year old going to college, on campus, CCW'ing? No. You can't infer I think the age should be raised based on that. Making inferences is not the same as what I'm stating. using the logic of "if A = B, and B=C, then A = C" is good for mathematical proofs and computer programming, not for someone's statements. If I explicitly say that the age should be raised to something above 21, then you have me. But I didn't.

not every pro-gunner needs to follow the herd all the time. Seems like a hard pill to swallow on here.:uhoh:
 
it's funny that you consider yourself a "pro-gunner", yet you want to take my gun rights away.

You do at least help prove that gun owners don't have to be that bright to be responsible with their guns though.
 
I work at this school and got the same email.

I replied to the sender (head of security, I believe) and told him students should be allowed to defend themselves using firearms. He wrote back saying that school policy forbids students on campus (regardless of age) from bearing arms.
 
sernv99,

I'm a medical student, and I cannot carry while attending classes because they're on campus. I often find myself leaving late at night/early morning, and having to walk a few blocks off campus to reach my car, alone and disarmed.

Do you think that myself, and other grad and professional students like me, shouldn't be allowed to carry and defend ourselves because of untested fears about what may happen if some theoretically immature people were allowed to possess a concealed weapon on campus?
 
here is the deal, they don't pass laws for every body, they pass laws for the idiots.
 
I will just state my opinion. I believe in individual freedom and equality. If someone is old enough to die for their country they should be able to carry a gun or drink alcohol, though preferably not at the same time. I also think that someone should be able to carry anywhere they go. I don't think they should restrict colleges, elementary schools, or any public buildings. I'm sure that some people will be immature and get into trouble. Once they do, their rights should be restricted and they should be punished equally. Action -> consequence
 
Its actually very smart to not allow guns on campus. Like it or not, if you allow them and some one gets shot( even if its a true accident) the College will be sued. If you forbid them, you "dodge that bullet"
 
Sernv You have your facts wrong. Cho was an American citizen. He bought his gun, and filled out the proper paperwork. His psych profile was a secret, and he lied about it on his forms.
 
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