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Duke of Doubt

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Not exactly a legal question; I know the law on point and what the various legal answers are. More an ethical question on which I'm honestly curious as to the firearms community's gut reaction.

Suppose hypothetically that during an expedition to discover, document and recover historic wrecked aircraft, you (or a client) came across an undocumented civilian wreck and found, among other things, one or more cased hunting firearms and/or a personal handgun in restorable-to-operable condition.

Would you work to return the firearm to the owner or the owner's estate? Would you leave it onsite? Would you take it, restore it and shoot it? Would you report any of this to the authorities? Assume that legally the choice is yours, as the applicable statute for lost property has passed, and that you have permission from the landowner (following your non-permitted but non-trespass expedition to the site last season) to enter onto his land and to remove any aircraft and related personal property, not to include human remains or property comingled with human remains.
 
On one hand, I would feel morally or ethically inclined to attempt return. On the other, if I were 100% within the law, since assuming that insurance benefits were paid to the family/estate and they would be out nothing, I would keep my find. That's why we hunt treasures, to acquire treasure. Soooo, what did you find?
 
You are going to deal with Salvage. I recall hearing bits about discovery of Civil War Battlefield Artifacts on Battlefield land and I think those needs to be turned in, but on private land... well... hm. Now one thing for certian, if I see what I think are human remains on said battlefield, I aint touching it. It will be up to the Agency "Graves Registration?" to trace back to see if they can do something with it.

Should I discover such a wreck presented here, I will get lawyer involved and see about claiming it as Salvage first and then once I "Plant" my name on it then we will see if there is any benefit to the Nation with Historic Artifacts (Smithsonian?) and whatnot. It is possible that even the survivors of those who perished in the wreck might want to know about this as well assuming that the wreck's identifying Airframe number and other numbers can be run through and traced. I guess I would start with FAA with such a number.

Anything else on site will be left alone as it is. I think maybe Lawyer will place a police watch on site to protect it until the Estate, Courts or other interested parties decide what is what with it.

If Human remains are on site, there needs to be a nearby funeral home brought into this as well as LEO's to start.

But that is just me thinking out loud.
 
Good points. Let's assume for the hypothetical discussion's sake that we do not (yet?) have provenance on the wreck, but that it is almost certainly of no historic significance or the object of any current official investigation. Further assume that you (or the client) have no interest in recovering anything from the site except for the firearm(s) -- not even cockpit instrumentation. Certainly you (or the client) have no interest in removing any human remains you may or may not find/have found. Finally, assume that you have consulted an attorney, though perhaps not a very good one, and that your plan for now is not to deal with the site in toto as a salvaged wreck (you do not plan to recover the wreck) but as a small grouping of lost personal property scattered over a fairly wide area.
 
Over the years I've had tools and audio gear that didn't belong to me left in my tool boxes or gear-trunks. These were items no one was actively looking for (not precious, but good and useful stuff, though not worth over $100 per item). I've inquired, found the owner when possible, and returned it to them. I'm not trying to say I'm ethically pure in some way, I just learned along the way to 50 that it was nagging mental burden not to try.

Les
 
Unless it was something super awesome/valuable I wouldn't bother with any of it.

So what didjha find? :D
 
I'm not so sure that you can legally take it for yourself. It still belongs to someone, and unless that someone is you, I'd secure it and inquire about it. What salvage laws exist and do they apply to this scenario? Seems like a lot to suppose from such little information.

Morally there is one right thing to do, turn it in since it isn't yours. Not much to discuss. Seems like a lot more legal questions than moral ones.
 
I say finders keepers....

But you better have it official somewhere that you are going there for salvage operations, and not for gun hunting...
 
Since I've been involved in an attempt to return a legally owned Japanese katana to the family that owned it as a heirloom for centuries...I'd be tempted to return it. After investigating the family. If they'd regard the firearm as a valuable family heirloom then I'd return it.

If they'd say,"Hey, wonder what we can get at auction for this?" then I would keep it if legally allowed to do so.
 
No way I would keep it unless I did every thing I could ( with in reason) to locate the owners next of kin. What they do with it, its thier choice.

I'm not sure if I would even take then from the wreck. IMO plane and ship wrecks are grave sites, they need to be treated as such.
 
I think it depends a little on who it would be returned to.

If it would go to a widow or family, I would ask if I could keep it in lieu of other compensation. Chances are she/they don't much care about the gun, and would say yes.

If it would go to the state, I'd just keep it.
 
I'm thinking like a cop 'cause I are one.

I'd contact the authorities, and be certain the FAA is advised of the find also. Anything in that wreckage is considered evidence, and could be useful to the investigation. If that pilot were a bank robber, you may have found a link to a crime.

When all is said and done, if the district attorney releases it to you; Congrats. If there is a deaqth involved you'd need legal representation to contest the estate or salvage laws I'm sure.
 
I am not a relic hunter, likely because I don't have that mindset.

I would be tempted to keep the firearms in question, but if they had any significant value I would be troubled enough by that idea to probably at least TRY to find the heirs and present the firearms to them.

(Notice that I didn't say 'return them', because although I believe there to be some tenuous moral claim on the part of the heirs to the property I do not believe that LEGALLY the heirs own the items.)
 
I think of my own firearms, many of them have been in the family for several generations. While it would be tempting to say nothing and go home with my spoils I would always have the nagging feeling that I had deprived some kid of his or her rightful inheritence.
 
I would think that if you found an "undocumented civilian wrecked aircraft", then somewhere around there are some "undocumented human remains". I don't know much about salvage laws, but the human remains need to be reported to law enforcement.

The aricraft needs to be reported to the FAA and NTSB. I would also think that anything pertaning to the aircraft would be evidence. That includes cargo, luggage, or anything else associate with the aircraft. Weight and balance of an aircraft are important in an NTSB investugation.

I would also be worried about the possiblity that some of this is stolen property.

Now if you report everything and the investigations are complete and you get to claim the aircraft contents or the aircraft itself under slavage laws, then the ethical question comes into play. At this point, I would ask myself, what would I want if I were the heir's in this situation. There are several of my dad's guns that more sentimental value than monetary value. I would have a hard time taking a gun hunting or to the range knowing it was being missed by someone that put's a great deal more value on it than I ever could.

You won't need to track down the heirs to the airplane occupants, the NTSB will do that for you. If you really wanted to keep something as a salvager, you could talk to the heir to work something out. He could buy them back at fair market value. Or maybe you can return part of the find and keep the rest. If you are a proffessional salvager, then you probably don't care about who owned what. But for me, the right thing would be to return the guns.

That's my $.02.
 
Upon further reflection, the guns did not enter the picture. I/We already have sufficient arms. No real need to get anymore. Sooo the guns stay in the wreck along with everything else.

Now if the USAF was to misplace a case of weapons above my home....I would call that base and tell em fetch. =)
 
The normal ethics are very simple... secure to prevent further harm (to wreckage, property, or bystanders), report, and the ownership claim strength is property owner/estate>land owner>discoverer>state. IOW if the owner (maybe insurance co) wants it they have it, otherwise the land owner, otherwise the discoverer, otherwise the state.

Classical salvage only marginally applies. It is based on encouraging preservation in the face of risk (saving a ship in a storm is high risk) by subdividing the value of the preserved property... it benefits everyone including the ship owner who lost half the value of their ship. That somewhat applies here ... the value of the wreckage (including firearms) is partially preserved) ... but the risk and social good aspects are greatly reduced. You might have a legal claim but IMO not much of an ethical claim.

The only twist comes from the weapons... there is a social good in securing them (a kid could find them) which should be rewarded. It is ethically justifiable to secure them, and ethically justifiable to reward those who secure weapons with an ownership claim, and ethically justifiable to punish those who leave unsecured weapons about with reduced ownership.

A lot of people would argue that such decisions should not be unilateral. That you maybe should get to keep something but only if the group agrees.

I am not a fan of group ethics. At the end of the day there is no group...it all comes down to the individual.

So... what, honestly, do you think was the value of securing those weapons?
 
Would you work to return the firearm to the owner or the owner's estate? Would you leave it onsite? Would you take it, restore it and shoot it? Would you report any of this to the authorities?
Report it to the authorities, then return it to it's owner.
 
If a private party hired me to discover and document a crash, well, I'd return it to the family or party I suppose.

If I went on my own will and expense and adventure to look at a crash noone else had cared to look at in years (?) after the fact I would probably keep it.
 
Good points. Let's assume for the hypothetical discussion's sake that we do not (yet?) have provenance on the wreck, but that it is almost certainly of no historic significance or the object of any current official investigation.......

With that clarification in mind the only choice left is an ethical one. Under this scenario you are not compelled by any statute to seek the previous owner of the guns, turn them in as evidence or treat them any differently than a dollar you found lying on the sidewalk. Duke correct me if I misinterpreted that.

When I was a senior in high school my class ring fell off my finger when I was driving down main street in my jalopy. I never noticed it. It was apparently run over by a passing car and kicked up onto the sidewalk. It was badly damaged but someone picked it up, saw the school name, found my name engraved inside and made the effort to contact my family and return the ring. The manufacturer honored the lifetime guarantee and repaired it completely. Because of that kind stranger I kept a memento that could have been lost forever.

Relative to the guns in this OP, I would make a sincere effort to find the original owner or his/her immediate family to return the firearm(s). I think they would appreciate that as much as I did the guy who found my ring. I would keep the guns only if I could not find the original owner or family after a sincere effort.
 
The correct moral/ethical thing to do is very black and white...it is only as grey as you want to make it. In this situation you don't even have to get so complicated as to think of WWJD, but rather is the item(s) mine or someone elses? If they don't belong to you then the moral thing to do is to start the process of finding the owner and/or turning everything over (wreckage co-ordinates) over to the proper agency. These questions of "if this" or "if that" are really just ways of trying to justify the outcome the way that you want it...making the situation grey.

Another member of THR and myself were shooting a while ago and while we were packing up our stuff we found that we were the last ones there at the range besides the rangemaster who was closing up. Walking down the firing line he noticed (that myself and the rangemaster didn't) a glock 21 and mags still in the case that someone had left behind. His options were to turn it over knowing that the owner would come back there looking for it, or keep it and nobody (myself included) would know. I'm glad to say that I made the correct decision in choosing this member to connect with because he did what I would have done and which is the morally correct thing to do, and that was turn the firearm over to the RM.
 
Trgrhpy, that is a very different situation.

If you dove on a wrecked rumrunner in Casco Bay and found coins, jewelry and several bottles of intact booze, not to mention an antique bronze propeller, would you work to find the descendants of the rumrunners? Of course not. The law provides for lost and mislaid property (and salvage in some cases, as mentioned above). I took the legalities off the table with my original post, and a later clarification. This is a matter of "firearms ethics," not property law. I know the law already. I was curious what gun people thought about the "gun side" and I have found the responses very interesting, and some helpful.
 
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