Deal or No Deal on Rock River, S&W, Sig, or AK?

It might not be the best rifle but it is a good one and better than a lot of them. It's available now, I would get it and be happy and start saving for another.

Ugh.. not the chart again.

Nothing wrong with RR.

.....

So someon makes up a "chart" and you take it to be the truth?? Who knows what kind of agenda the person making such "chart" had??

RRA is fine. For all practical purposes, an AR newbie won't be able to tell a difference between a good gun and a GREAT gun. Heck, I bet if they were really blinded as to what they had, so called experts won't really be able to tell them apart either. Half of that is placebo effect and hype. People think "expenve" = "Good", just like those Arsenal AK's.

The M&P15 is great but there is nothing wrong with your RRA.

Lvcat- A member on this forum named rob s created the chart. It is generally accepted to be an accurate representation of what rifles have what features. It is not like he just made it up for ****s and giggles. I find that the only people who rip the chart are the ones who have guns that are a little more to the right on the chart and cant imagine why, because "they go bang ever time", so this chart must be bs.
You are missing the point of the chart. Because a rifle is further to the right doesnt automatically imply it is junk and vis versa, it is simply stating which rifles come with the more desirable features and it seems that in general, when a company cuts corners on things that may not seem important to you such as proper bcg staking or mp inspected bolts, it makes you wonder, what other kinds of quality control measures are they skimping on just to save a buck??
And as far as there being no more evidence or examples of "lower tier rifles" failing than upper tier rifles, that is simply not true. Do an internet search on RRA triggers failing. I have not only read about examples, but I personally know people who have experienced this. Also search for Bushmaster front sights being canted. Search for DPMS chambers being out of spec resulting in extraction problems. Then do a search for problems encountered with colts, lmts, and other rifles toward the left of the chart and tell me what you find.
It is no coincidence that rifles with more desireable features fail less.
Im not even saying that RRA or busmaster dont make good guns, I am just saying the chart is pretty accurate and it is a good way to determine what rifles have what features. Unfortunately, it has started more pissing contests than god knows what, when that wasn't even the intended reason for creating it.

Buy what you want. Thats all there is to it. The RRA has a great trigger and they shoot very well. They may not be milspec in every way but I'm not milspec. I would rather the rifle shoot well than be built to slightly tougher specs. I'm not going to abuse my rifle beyond all get out. If you are looking for something that will be needed to save your butt every day you may want to look at the top tier brands but outside of that I don't think you will find any flaws with the RRA and may find it a much more enjoyable rifle. What do you think one will do that another won't? Again, your money, your rifle, your fun. Buy what you want. But seriously look at why you want to change from one to another and what you think you really are gaining with the change, be that from Olympic to Colt or the other way around.

Nothing wrong with an RR but I love my Sig 556 SWAT.

Buy what you want, and which model you choose. The chart is accurate in some cases in some models. Ive seen far too many examples that are given credit for what they dont have according to the chart. And some not given credit for what they actually have.
The chart also is inaccurate in that almost all AR models have certain parts made by certain manufacturers for all companies, and the excuse that the manufacturers on the far right (which make most of the parts) use lower quality parts than others is BS.
I checked the chart and found half of the features to be listed wrong on many models.
Buy what you want to, and gloat about how good it works years from now, the chart snobs will have gone or changed the chart many times by then.
Milspec isnt always tougher or better, take for example the H&K 416, many of the features in the chart are not found and never will be found there. Even though a different design rifle take the example of the Sig 556 and many others.

I know alot of guys that really love their RR. A good quality rifle.

OP, do some research on your own and chose the rifle that has the features that YOU most desire. Im sure you would be happy with any of the afformentioned firearms, I just wanted to give you a little something to think about before spending your hard earned cash.

As far as my opinion is concerned, I have this to say: I bought an m&p-15 A model for many of the reasons you talked about....LMT BCG, troy rear sights, I liked that it had a 1/9 barrel, among other things. I have over 1000 rounds down the pipe with zero problems and do not regret my decision for a second. I considered a sig 556 as well, but went with an AR due to the increased parts and accessories availability, and I also like the ergonomics and the way the AR balanced better. Dont get me wrong though, the sig is a very nice firearm, the AR just fit MY needs/ wants better. Personally, If the RR and smith are the same price, I dont see why you wouldnt go with the one that has more features which in this case is the m&p. That is just my opinion and like I said, even though you will most likely be quite satisfied with what ever you choose, do some more research and think about what features are important to you.

The charts I've seen here, and on AR15.com, compare features desired in a military rifle. Some have merit (twist rates, BCG and bolt features), some indicate QA was done, some note potentially desireable craftmanship (parkarizing under the front sight base), and some are handy if you're going to abuse the rifle (chrome lined barrels).

Then again, a military rifle may or may not have features that YOU really want.

- Do you really want a chrome lined barrel? There are better stainless barrels, and if you look at competition rifles in a high power match, I think you'll find chrome lined barrels in the minority. I've seen crome-lined barrels with issues, and remember that adding the plating changes the dimensions of the bore, and dulls the sharp edge off the lands. Only one manufacturer I know of has the barrel actually bored considering the chrome lining to follow.

- Do you really want a mil-spec trigger? Where's that in the analysis? Most folks like a RRA 2-stage. Jewel and Gieselle have better match triggers.

- A free-float handguard is a plus for accuracy. Where's that in the analysis?

- 5.56 chambers? Not as accurate as Wylde or even .223 chambers.

etc. etc.

The 'charts' imply that you value the same things the chart designer does, which is usually a lot of mall-ninja military orientation....something most folks don't need, if you're not headed for Iraq or Afghanistan.

Did you ever seriously handle Colt AR(s)? They might be reliable, but most every one I've seen the upper was loose in the lower. You won't see that in RRA(s) (...although you won't see that in Noveske(s) or LMT(s) either.)

Your taste may be different. You may want a competition gun, with a billet receiver, stainless barrel, competition trigger...or maybe a Varmint AR.

The charts have steered more new to AR(s) into overpriced milspec stuff than they've helped.

FWIW, I have LMT(s) and RRA(s), as different tools with different intents.

Consider your intent. You may want an AR not on the chart, and there are many good candidates (Les Baer, White Oak, etc.)

What isn't

Rob-s will tell you that the chart was made for people looking for a combat firearm not a race gun. It was never put together for people who are going to be killing prairie dogs. It was put together for people who need a firearm that they can rely on when their lives depend on it.

For me, my guns are not toys. If I want a long ranged firearm it isn't going to have all the same features as a combat gun. Sure some will be the same but others will differ. I won't trust my life to a DPMS and I won't be taking 1000 Meter shoots with my 6920

Curiosity is killing me, where can I find this "chart"?

Rob-s will tell you that the chart was made for people looking for a combat firearm not a race gun. It was never put together for people who are going to be killing prairie dogs. It was put together for people who need a firearm that they can rely on when their lives depend on it.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. Now a few simple questions:

- Name any reasonable scenario in which your Indiana AR is a good tool for defense? You shoot anybody at rifle range (at a distance) in Indiana, you're gonna be charged with murder, not self defense. For self defense, at short range with an imminent threat, a shotgun or pistol are better defense range tools.

- Name any scenario in which you go to Iraq or Afghanistan, and they let you take your personally owned AR. (Any branch of the service.)

So, with the exception of a limited number of Police departments (who may permit the use of a personal rifle for defense...assuming you bring it to that situation) , who in the US would have an AR for defense? It's pretty implausible, TEOTWAWKI type stuff.

Again, IMO, the chart is more geared for wannabe mall ninjas. Service folks have real M16s and M4s, not AR15s and M-forgeries.

RugerOldArmy has some very valid points in his past 2 posts, but I think many people want what is considered the best, or close to it, even if they don't "need" the best. Yes, my .45 or my 12 GA would make a better home defense weapon, and no, I don't plan on engaging hordes of zombies at 100+ yards, but there is nothing wrong with having standards. Middle aged men dont "need" corvettes, because a honda civic or a chevy impala will work....If people went around thinking that way, most of us wouldnt have half the stuff we do.

PB Walsh:

I believe ones like this are what was referred to:



IMO, there is some value in some things:

- Bolt QA tests
- Extractor Insert (but tell me there are no cheap black chinese ones out there)
- M16 BCG (more robust)
- 1:7 twist (may be desireable, based on application, although 1:8 works for most.)
- Tapered Pins (better than non tapered pins.)


Some things, though, I personally avoid. 5.56 Chambers, chrome lined barrel (but I do have one that shoots reasonably well, not highpower competition well, but better than I expected.) I'd take a free float handguard (especially the LaRues) over a double-shielded.

Some things I personally care a great deal about are missing: A decent trigger, and a decent barrel. Put a Shilen or Kreiger barrel and a Geiselle (sp) trigger in mine...but my focus is marksmanship.

Some things in the chart are a bit subjective. For example, everybody on the internet can talk about properly staked gas keys, ad nauseam...how many non-Vulcan/Hesse ARs out there have this issue over the first 20K of use?

Besides personal taste, perhaps what annoys me most is when folks call their guns 'weapons', and look to an AR15 as a weapon. AR15s are tools, or toys. If we were looking at specs to engineer them as weapons, there would be another pin in the lower, another position functional on the selector, and maybe some of these chart features would be more pertinent, but then we would be talking about M16s and M4s...not m-forgeries. <end rant>

RugeroldArmy, thanks for clarifying my thoughts. I think people who refer to this chart (I'm not bashing the chart itself, it's fine for what it is) to decide on what they buy to "defend themselves and their loves ones" don't have a good clue about what they are talking about. DPMS and RRA not good enough to defend your house? What exactly do you think the bad guys are going to carry? something higher up on the "chart" than you?

for the OP, get what you want, but given that DEA has purchased RRA as their service rifle, I personally wouldn't worry about you outperforming the rifle if it's your first AR. I really don't think there are a whole lot of people who can outshoot their AR platform.....especially not tacticool mall ninjas...