Don't know what is the fascination is with Russian firearms?

Are you o.k.?

The Makarov is one of the more reliable pistols around.
The AK is almost certainly the most reliable semiauto/auto ever made.
The Mosin has killed more people than smallpox.

You listed three of the great firearms of modern history - and called them throw-aways.

I would say if they were so poorly made they were scary to shoot they were probably not Russian made guns. Copies of Russian guns, sure. There's some real junk out there that was made in caves (literally). I think there are many cool Russian made guns. My personal favorites are the Saiga Kalashnikov rifles. They are the only completely Russian made AKs that are available and (pre-hysteria) many people that don't like the AK platform conceded they were by far the best value in rifles. I remember when a Saiga .308 was under $300 brand new! Sure, it's a 2 MOA battle rifle, but there's almost nothing you can do to it that will make it stop working. If I ever have to bug out my Saiga is going with me.

Mosins made prior to WWII are of excellent worksmanship, and most of the WWII rifles aren't too bad. The Makarov is a decent little gun. The AK is ledgendary for reliabilty, not stellar accuracy, good carbine. I agree, most Russian made small arms I have run into are pretty darn good. One of the BIG attractions to the current run of Russian imports is price, Maks are still relatively cheap, and Mosins can be had for under $100 mostly. AKs also can be much cheaper than ARs.
Of course, I am partial to Czech made guns...

Well, I'll agree here--the ones you encountered were probably not Russian, going by the evidence ('scary to shoot') and the numbers of Russian guns out there and locations. Probably manufactured right around that area. And/or, to judge by my hand-me-down info, probably getting on fifty years old.

I think what the big deal is, is that Russian guns and the designs themselves 1) are hard to break and 2) work just as well (usually better) as any other country's guns of the era (I'm including America's) and are a heck of a lot cheaper.

Just tell me where you can get any other rifle chambered in something near .308 or .30-06, made in 1944 or before, that will shoot 2-inch groups at a hundred yard with 50-year-old surplus ammo, for $70.

And my personal AK (a converted Saiga) may not feel as nice, but shoots just as well as the 'low-end' 7.62x39 AR's I've seen at the range, that still cost at least twice as much.

I propose that Russian designs are great, but in many cases--usually the non-Russian manufacturers'--the manufacturing can often leave a bit to be desired. In fact, most Russian guns I've handled, while maybe not old Winchester and S&W quality on the fit and finish, are just as tough. Most are certainly better than a lot of modern Taurus', and a lot of people still swear by those.

Russian designs are wonderful and, from an engineering student's standpoint, a godsend to firearms design. They're so wonderful, in fact, that people can put one together in a tent with chewing gum and baling wire and, even if it's frightening to shoot the thing, that gun will run well after the rifling wears away.

Some people have a natural tendency to not like guns they had shot at them at some point. Could that be possibly whats going on here? Theres a reason the weapons you mentioned are popular. Dollar for dollar, they are awesome values typically, reliable to a fault. They certainly aren't "throw-aways" but if you have several you'd like to dispose of, please feel free to contact me. I'd gladly take any of the "junk" guns you mentioned. I think its rather entertaining that you've dismissed the most popular battle rifle of the 20th centry as "junk" though. I guess it was a pretty popular piece of junk if its use is so widespread nand still being currently produced in numbers incomprable to that of most firearms.

1. They are cheap to buy and cheap to shoot. A box of .308 is $25 7.62x54r is $5.

2. They may not be pretty and will not win any matches, but they are reliable. You can get one for your trunk, home, RV, boat, or bury it- when you need it it will work.

3. History. Not everyone can shell out $1k for a US WW2 Rifle. you can geta decent looking Mosin for 1/10 the price of a Springfield.

4. They are fun to shoot. The blast of the M38 or M44 will light the range.

Cheaply made? Throw aways?

I love the russian firearms, AKs, SKSs, Mosins, Makarovs, oh you forgot Tokarevs too. They are great guns. They are simple, inexpensive, and built to last. You can beat the heck out of those guns and they'll go boom every time. "They're so simple a 12 year old can use it...and they do." Are they sub MOA bench rifles? No.

I like the russian guns not only cause they're cheap and good, BUT they're much better than the call of duty kids M4geries covered in rails and lazers that all you see nowadays. They're utilitarian guns. They're a different mindset from a different era.

They're cheap right now. They won't stay that way. Krags, Mausers, Springfields, etc. used to be cheap too. At one time, not all that long ago, you could buy a Chinese or Russian SKS and get change back from a C-note. When I was a kid, Lugers_for the most part_were plentiful and cheaper than a new US made pistol.
Let's not even think about 19th century stuff that Bannerman's sold by the ton.

I would expect no other opinion from someone in Germany.

Price has a lot to do with it. A new shooter can get a powerful, reasonably accurate rifle capable of hunting anything in the lower 48 for 100 dollars in the form of a mosin nagant. Surprisingly, they also resell for about the same value too.

I'm of the "Last Cold War Generation", the last kids who grew up thinking the big one was coming, I was 9 years old when Red Dawn hit theaters, I was the son of an army Sarge. The Soviets were the big bad menace, I had a "better dead than red" t-shirt. And like all dread enemies there was a desire to understand them... Some of my interest comes from that era of my childhood.

As I got older, and as the Soviet Union dissolved things changed. My understanding of Russia and the history of the soviet empire became nuanced and I developed an interest in the major conflicts of this century and the cold war that followed. When I developed an interest in using firearms it was only natural that an interest in surplus firearms came along with it. The Soviet era is an important part of world history and I love the aesthetics of the old battle rifles.

I would expect no other opinion from someone in Germany.

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I'm assuming from the "Afghanistan" comments that he is one of the many US soldiers occupying... erm... based in Germany and not a native German.

They are cheap, reliable, cheap, available, cheap, etc.

Reliability, durability, and value, generally speaking. That is true of a lot of Russian designs, whether the topic is an AK or a spacecraft.

They are probably one of the more elegant designs out there. That's "elegant" in an engineering sense: The simplest, cheapest, most straight forward means to achieve a solution. They were designed to be cheap and easy to manufacture and maintain, toss to a conscript and say: "Go kill some Germans!" And then have the weapon survive the conscript to be used again. In the words of Lenin: "Quantity IS it's own quality." They are 'nuff: Good 'nuff, cheap 'nuff, accurate 'nuff, strong 'nuff, simple 'nuff. . . Don't compare them to things like H-K or Swedish Mausers, or Swiss K-31 or even American M-14's or M-1s that were made under basically peacetime conditions (I know about WW2, but how many of our factories were bombed during WW2? The Russians were making tanks and arms in factories that were in many cases under direct attack-like in Stalingrad). Compare them more to things like Sten guns, M3 grease-guns, etc. Keep in mind also that many Mosin Nagants have been arsenal refurbished several times, and some were even made in America under contract during WW1. And they are still here and work well. I have examples of virtually every bolt rifle design made and still admire the M-N's. It is very hard to make a rifle that is stronger, with fewer parts, and have it be more accurate, more durable, and more reliable. And the magazine design is the most brilliantly simple way of dealing with rimmed ammo in a vertical magazine I have seen yet.

Every post in this thread is repeating the same things. Do we have a Russian on this board who can start an anti HK thread

I like the Makarov as a cheap, reliable, and light pistol for a ccw. I'm rather indifferent to AKs, its not that I wouldn't buy one I just wouldn't be excited about the purchase. But I'm not a fan of Mosins, the fit and finish are just too atrocious and I haven't seen an example that was a good shooter. I saw someone describe them here at THR as "reusable fireworks", pretty apt description.

Not to forget the US Army issued Nagants to the units fighting in Russia just after WW1, also they wound up owning 500,000 Nagants in 1916 made by Remington and Westinghouse, these were issued to National Guards and cadet units for many years, were finally sold off by the DCM in the 1920's. If you can get hold of one of those rifles, or a Russian model from the 1920's to 1940, you might change your mind. The Nagants captured by the Finns and overhauled in their arsenals are particularly good shooters.

ut I'm not a fan of Mosins, the fit and finish are just too atrocious and I haven't seen an example that was a good shooter.

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Seriously? They sure aren't pretty and they sure aren't smooth, but they'll definitely shoot. What exactly is a good shooter? 1 MOA?

Who'd pass up a chance to own the read deal Kalashnikov? Not me, I'd love to have one.

I'm not into Nagants, but I'd like to have a Saiga.

He was probably seeing Khyber pass specials made from scrap metal by blind men in caves. They produce low grade copies of everything in there. A true Russian made AK is not a cheap throw away. It's incredibly reliable and will last through multiple world wars. Same with the Mosins. I've seen Mosins that started life in the Russo-Japanese war then went on to fight through both world wars on various sides and are still in fighting form.

The key here; and most do agree; is that if it's a "True" Russian or Czech gun; and I would even include Romanian; then they are very good quality made guns. I personally like them because I am a military history buff. I myself spent 21 years in the military. Traveling/living/working in 14 countries, I've come to appreciate military weapons. There is no doubt that for modern times; the AK-47 is about the most reliable carbine/military rifle known to mankind. They can be thrown in mud, sand, water, etc... and keep on shooting. Granted, some of the chinese type imitations might be junk, but that's not a Russian, Romanian, Czech, etc... model. In the WWII era; the M1 Garand is without doubt, the gun of guns. Nothing can compare. However, the mosin can not be laughed at. It too is one of the finest weapons, for it's time. I have original Springfield Armory 1911A1 45acp (Also, the best handgun of it's time). I have an M1 Garand and Carbine. I also have a mosin rifle and a pistol. In more modern day weapons, I have a Romanian Ak style, Czech CZ-82, russian Tokarev, Romanian PA-63 and AP-MBP. These are all some of the finest military/police weapons of their time.

Don't get me wrong. I love my SigSauer P220 45acp. I also love my S&W model 13-1 357magnum. And I love my remington 870 and savage 7mm mag. And actually; I don't currently have a gun I don't like. But to say that Russian/Eastern Block military weapons are junk, is NOT even up for a debate. A person can definitely have an opinion, but that is a very uneducated opinion. You might not like the looks. Might not like the weight. Might not like the style. Might not like a lot of things. That's the same with cars, trucks, electronics, etc... But saying that an AK, CZ-82, Mosin, etc... are junk, poorly made, etc...; is like saying a lexus, volvo, or Cadillac are poorly made. You might not like the price or looks, but don't even try and say it's poorly made.

Top all of this off with the fact that you can currently get these weapons cheap, as well as the ammo, and it's a no brainer. I feel 100% confident carrying my CZ-82 as a concealed weapon. Basically the same effectiveness as my 38spl, yet smaller and easier to carry. I feel just as confident with my AK, PA, AP, and other military eastern block weapons.

Seriously? They sure aren't pretty and they sure aren't smooth, but they'll definitely shoot. What exactly is a good shooter? 1 MOA?

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Yes they'll shoot. They'll probably shoot long after you and I are dead. The action is tough as nails, but I want a little better than pie plate accuracy at 100 yards. A serviceable old battle rifle for under $100 bucks is great, but I'd rather save that money for a better rifle or ammo for the ones I already have. That's just personal preference, if Mosins float your boat more power to you.

I want a little better than pie plate accuracy at 100 yards.

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So you're saying the Mosins you've shot have been 8-10 MOA or more? My AK is twice that accurate at least. Did you try more than one kind of ammo?