Empty hand training

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Pick a place where most of the students are not 10 and / or the instructor doesn't hand out belts like popcorn. You don't want to "complete" the training like you do a degree, training is something you will do all your life. It is THE WAY...

I personally would recommend boxing and Aikido. The Reason I would shoot for Boxing is that in order to box, you have to be in shape. That is almost as much a part of the sport / discipline as the punching. It will help you get in shape. Aikido is something you can do for the rest of your life, I mean when you are 100 you can still practice Aikido.
 
Great advice-at 45 the "hard style" training HAS gotten a bit more difficult for me.I still do it,but it DOES feel a bit more like work .
 
Absolutely - Krav Maga. It is a 'fight for your life' skill. It "emphasizes threat neutralization, simultaneous defensive and offensive maneuvers, and aggressive endurance in a 'him-or-me' context" (from Wiki). It will teach you not to just strike and wait to see if there will be a response - it is a strike to disable your opponent. Even better, it will teach when it is best to just run...
 
So where is he located?

Physical conditioning is important. However, suppose you are not fit or have physical disabilities? You still need to win. It could well be a matter of survival. Never assume that an unknown assailant is playing black eyes and split lips. He might be playing crushed skull and broken necks.

I've trained in martial arts since 1972. Never got into top shape as I like to eat too much. I've been in a lot of fights due to work bad debt collection and repossession. Won all but three who hit me from behind. Pay close attention to your six.

Karate and most martial art systems have what, in my opinion, is a glaring error. They are essentially dueling systems that are teaching you to fight a single opponent. They have extremely strong and effective strikes and kicks which have the unintended consequence of leaving one overextended and off balance for the second and third opponent behind you.

Japanese koryu such as the Kashima Shinryu taught by Dr. Karl Friday at the University of Georgia in Athens, Ga. have comparatively weak strikes and kicks but you are never overextended and off balance to the point that you cannot react in any direction. Jinenkan ryu is a system derived from several Japanese koryu that also teaches unarmed combat from a melee perspective.

A BJJ practitioner once made this statement to me:"Brazilian Jujutsu is the best unarmed one on one fighting system in the world."

I pondered this for a while and then replied,"That might well be so. But it leaves you with two problems...fighting me alone and fighting me unarmed."

A lot of training in a lot of styles is actually focused on subduing the opponent without critical harm being inflicted. Inflicting critical harm is actually easy. In the scuffle your opponent's ear or nose winds up next to your mouth? Bite it off. You get ahold of one of his fingers? Bend it backwards as hard and fast as you can. After it breaks don't let go. Squeeze the break until he screams and then poke him in the eye with a full speed thumb strike. Then kick him in the groin. Several times. Don't forget to kick his knees backwards as hard as you can.

But, hey, if you are legally justified to take the struggle to this level then you are probably justified in shooting.

Kashima Shinryu is also taught at some university in California. It's on their website. It's the most inexpensive training I know of. The instructors don't make anything. The only charge is to defray training area expenses. At UGA five or so years ago it was five bucks a session.
 
Now, as far as "weight train or not," again, it isn't the #1 priority. Jon, I get where you're coming from, but some anecdotes (your fighting perhaps not being affected by your strength/weight...the 140lb guy...) do not equal hard data.

Once again I think your missing the point. Obviously that 140 pound guy would have a tough time in a real fight with me since I currently have about 100 lbs on him. The point is that because of his skill and technique he still has a chance against a larger opponent. There is no amount of weightlifting that is going to turn him into a 6 foot 250 pound guy. There is a point were size diparity takes over and that guy is just going to overpower you. But with training you can still have a level of effectiveness against a guy like that that you won't gain just by lifting weights. Most fighters would be much better served by increasing their cardio and practicing a few basic techniques than just adding muscle mass. You can't be stronger than everyone. Truth be told the larger muscle mass burns a lot of energy. You see huge guys in boxing, UFC, etc.. that run out of steam VERY quickly without proper cardio. If size was all that mattered Bob Sapp would always win, yet smaller guys have knocked him the heck OUT.

Also, its pretty insulting to dumb down many years of experience, learning, teaching and training to "anecdotes". The anecdotes were for the purposes of expressing a point to people who don't HAVE that level of training and experience. They aren't proof of the point. I don't agree with some of the points made by some of the other martial artists on here but I offer a different viewpoint rather than trying to minimize theirs.
 
Okay, I am going to settle this quickly.

Just learn to fight like Lyoto Machida. If you don't know who that is, download all his fights. His style is simply amazing. He has a karate background, but like all Mixed-martial artists he is extremely well rounded.

Fyodor Emeliananko (sp?) is also amazing. His background is Sambo (Russian wrestling/judo), but again, he can do it all.

Mirko Cro Cop wasn't bad. His background was kickboxing and special forces, but again, well rounded.

Those are probably three of the best fighters in the world. And Lyoto Machida is just on an ether-worldly level.

Granted, you may say, "it's sport fighting, not real fighting." Let me ask you, would you tell Jerry Miculek "you're just a sport shooter, you couldn't do the real thing." ?

Lyoto Machida and Fedor are to martial arts what Dave Sevigny and Jerry Miculek are to shooting.

to reply to an above poster.... BJJ competition is oriented on one-on-one. It does have multiple opponent techniques as it's basically a love child of Japanese Jiu-Jitsu. Aikido, Judo, and BJJ are all derived from Jiu-jitsu just with different spins on them from their respective founders which then further evolved from different schools. It's just evolution baby. Your own style will have special elements to it based on your body type and preference.

When I went against talls guys, I love ippon-seionage with the leg coming up into the crotch. Against shorter guys, I loved harai-goshi. For same-size guys, I liked trips and sacrifice throws. I also used wrestling takedowns. I practiced a sambo scissor takedown. The point.... there is no one size fits all solution. Learn as much as you can, and perfect it in training or competition.

I think which martial art to pick is kind of like this question.... what pistol for self-defense? .357 magnum, 45 Auto, 9mm, 40 S&W.... they all work. Some work better than others. Software first then hardware.... but some calibers are definitely more effective than others.

I think that is what it comes down to. Pick something, get really good at it, then supplement it with other styles to be ultimately well rounded.
 
jon_in_wv wrote:

Also, its pretty insulting to dumb down many years of experience, learning, teaching and training to "anecdotes". The anecdotes were for the purposes of expressing a point to people who don't HAVE that level of training and experience. They aren't proof of the point. I don't agree with some of the points made by some of the other martial artists on here but I offer a different viewpoint rather than trying to minimize theirs.

Hey, not my intention at all. I believe I will stop replying to your posts now as either I am miscommunicating my point, or you have dealt with a lot of internet jerks (maybe both). But, I assure you, I'm not trying to minimize your experience; I really do like reading your posts and would appreciate it if you kept speaking up. Maybe I missed your point, but I did mean to keep the reply respectful in my disagreement.

Have a good one.

Conwict
 
Don't stop! I just didn't want to see my comments reduced to an anecdote which I assure you they are not. Anecdotes are pointless. One day on the range a bullet ricocheted off the barrier and struck me in the leg. I didn't get so much as a bruise so the anecdotal evidence would be that I'm bulletprooof! What I was trying to do was use anecdotes to illustrate my point, drawn from years of experience both in and out or the ring, but they were in no way meant to prove my point. Back on track.

Most martial arts aren't about fine motor skills as much as they are the commitment to learn, practice those skills, and to learn the practical application of them. Sadly, MOST martial artists do the first two and dont' stick around long enough to learn the third. For the more casual purpose of just learning some self defense I think they are better served by getting in shape, learning some crude and simple techniques, and practicing them. Even if that means running and buying a heavy bag to throw some punches you would be better off than most. I deal with criminals on a daily basis, trust me, most are not good fighters. BUT they are experienced fighters. They have thrown punches and taken them. Most of us have not.
 
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Thanks for the further info...would you say that aggression is one of the main reasons a lot of those guys are so dangerous? I mean, the willingness to do real violence is pretty rare except in the criminal underclass. Even in common martial arts most moves are not meant to maim and kill...which is the fastest way to end the fight obviously. I've been working on a theory that maybe the most important variable in combat is being able to judge a situation effectively and, if necessary, present overwhelming violence. I bet the guy who hesitates is usually the guy who goes down, skill aside.
 
maybe the most important variable in combat is being able to judge a situation effectively and, if necessary, present overwhelming violence. I bet the guy who hesitates is usually the guy who goes down, skill aside.

BINGO!! Most officers I've seen assaulted were struck unaware and unprepared. They had no plan to counter and did what they practiced. Nothing. I have always trained people that when met with violence you MUST be prepared to meet that violence explosively, decisively, and with equal or greater violence. If you aren't capable of doing that you will lose. If a you are fit, and you practice (for example) hitting the heavy bag a few times a week, chances are when you attack you will punch back and do it relatively effectively. If you just sit around and think you are tough, you'll learn quickly how tough you are NOT. I've seen so many officers freeze or get stunned when they are hit. They can't believe it happened and hesitate. Some even curl up in a ball and just get beat. Trust me, and inmate (or crook) who was raised on the street fighting won't do that.

Most people have NEVER thrown a punch will all their force at anything much less another human. A good drill I would do with guys is get them to a heavy bag and tell them to punch it as hard as they can. Usually, regardless of size, its not that impressive and usually results in a really sore wrist. Then I punch it a few times and they are amazed that I'm smaller than them yet I can hit the bag much harder. Its not super powers its just training. Some of my friends can't believe I train on the bag without gloves. I don't need them. My hands have adapted over the years. You have to adapt yourself mentally and physically. It doesn't really take that much effort to increase your chances of survival GREATLY. It sounds like a lot of you guys are on the right track.
 
I tell people who want to get the maximum return on the minimum investment of time and energy. (In other words, people who have no interest in training in a system on a regular and continuing basis) to study anatomy to learn the body's weak points and then go for them with gusto. If it is supposed to bend this way then bend it the other way with all the strength and speed available. Only hit with a bare hand when nothing is at hand to grab and hit with. Humans are tool users so use a tool.

Make the fight just as unfair as you possibly can.
 
I guess I may as well throw out one more opinion here, what the hey. Take it with a grain.

Before I say it, I want folks to know where I'm coming from: I have 20+ years in traditional martial arts (I won't say how much the plus is), most of which is in Okinawan Goju-Ryu, a style that I had my own school in for a while–I was into this stuff 4-5 nights a week for hours, for years. I have also taught for my hometown's police dept, FWIW. I still go to every FMA stick and knife seminar that comes my way as well. I'm no world-class competitor, but I do have *some* solid grounding in traditional arts.

With that said, here comes the opinion: I'm basically a fan of straight ahead defensive tactics when it comes to preparing jane and joe average for the street. Dr 2, if you live in any major city, I'd look at who trains the cops, and see about getting in with them (an example would be Bob Bragg in the Seattle area; find the State Criminal Justice Training Center near you). If you live close to a military base, there may be some noteworthy instructors who subcontract there. To get an idea of what I'm talking about, check out the paladin press dvd of Kelly McCann's combatives, and compare that to the youtubes of traditional art "dueling" (as it was put above).

I am not saying that I don't love traditional karate-do (I think it's very cool) and I am not at all sorry that I have all of that muscle memory to rely upon whenever I train with someone else; it certainly comes in handy. But when it comes to integrating gun, stick, knife, car antenna, rocks and bottles into a workable system with some permanancy (in the event that one can't practice 4 times a week), then modern defensive tactics start to look pretty good.

Other opinions may well vary.
 
Well I guess one additional opinion won't hurt either. LOL Yes, have a quarter century worth of practice in a semi-traditional style with jumps into BJJ and a few other things for a few years at a time, but mostly in a semi-traditional full contact system that had an emphasis in boxing. And, for what it's worth, I have also known two people mugged by multiple assailants and two people stabbed in fights.

So take all of this and whatever you read on forums with a grain of salt. Can MAs help? Yes. But perhaps not entirely in the ways one might consider. MAs are not panaceas and size and strength issues do matter. When it really comes down to it, if you hit hard and fast or can get your hands on your opponent to cause him harm so he stops attacking you, well there's most of the stuff right there. Getting to that point is hard work and training, nothing magical. However, what's missing is the awareness, or its lack, prior to a bad situation becoming worse. And outside of ego related fights, if you are H2H with someone else, it got worse pretty quickly where you probably don't want to be if you can help it.

The two muggings I know of were targeted with multiple assailants...and one against many is not something most people can handle despite whatever they have studied. Situational awareness and some ideas for not getting into those situations, de-escalating physical attacks before they become physical, ideas on how to use and understand the environment, and a good set of running shoes are all mandatory in my opinion. Regardless of what is studied and practiced.

With respect to arts/styles and systems, well to be honest there are only so many ways your body can move and any style that you pick up should have physical contact that is resistive. This is the where you learn to apply techniques. No matter what one says, if you are throwing a right cross in a boxing ring or on the street, there is no difference in the technique, only the intent of the technique. Learning without hitting anyone is a technique that has no application and so is questionable up to the point of that usage. Therein lies the need for application in a resistive manner against an opponent. And no one said this has to be a beat-em-up kind of thing either. Resistance is oriented to the ability of the participants. That's key.

So in any case, get some good instruction...make sure there is increasing levels of resistance so you learn to apply techniques against those who don't wish them to be applied; and do get some weight lifiting and running in to get yourself a bit stronger and more fit. This can only help regardless. The benefit of learning in a resistive environment (not where you are brutalized by an opponent, but learning from hitting/grappling against someone intent on stopping you in a safe training area) is that you will also learn your limitations and not assume a technique has merit without actually be able to apply said technique yourself.

As one final note, ancient warriors focused mostly on weapons and relegated hand-to-hand as subordinate arts for a reason since weapon skills equalized a great many size and strength issues. Same as today.
 
If a you are fit, and you practice (for example) hitting the heavy bag a few times a week, chances are when you attack you will punch back and do it relatively effectively.

or you could learn to actually box and avoid being hit while giving hits.
You can't learn to slip a punch without being punched at, you can't learn to punch properly without punching at someone.
Hitting a heavy bag is not the same as hitting a moving target that is trying to hit you.

Kind of like dry firing. Shadow boxing and hitting the heavy bag will make you more proficient, but if ALL you did was dry fire, it wouldn't mean you could effectively use a firearm defensively. It doesn't HURT though, unless you are practicing with sloppy technique in which you are only reinforcing bad habits that you will have to unlearn if you do ever start to learn real boxing.
 
If it's available to you, I also recommend you try Krav Maga. Personally, I've found it to be the most realistic and effective martial art I've done so far. It's also physically demanding, so it's a good way to get in shape.

Boxing/Kickboxing would be great too as an addition to KM or on it's own.
 
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There's some good information on here and there's one other consideration that has to be made, regardless of system or style studied: And that is that good instruction does not always equal good student performance, though it helps.

The failure is attempting to apply what someone else can do well, but you can't, for many reasons including disability, as one poster pointed out. The point being, just as there are numerouse people who have practiced football or baseball since elementary school, this does not give you an automatic ability to be a professional in that sport regardless of how good that instruction is. Nor does that take away the ability to fight that someone else has despite lack of formal education. Talent, drive...and instruction are good to have but may not help one become as good as someone else who does this for a living. So, when professional fighters of whatever ilk are presented, you have to remember that these folks are better than the average student taking three classes a week wherever in whatever.
 
Check out www.crossfit.com

Find a local crossfit gym near where you live and join it. Go every day.

You will find yourself gaining the type of power, strength, and mental determination required to win a street fight or just escape. I believe that a highly determined person who is in excellent physical condition is just as formidable (or more formidable) than the vast majority who study a formal 'art'.

Have you ever watched COPS? Think about how many take downs require a high level of technical skill vs. raw power and aggression.

It isn't a bad idea to learn a particular fighting style but I think you would be much better off focusing on physical fitness in the short-run.
 
Whatever style(s) you learn, and whoever you learn them from, there are some common points that I don't think anyone with real world experience will argue:

1. Don't M.I.T. it-don't learn so much that you have to select from a large mental catalog of what to do. A few simple techniques well executed will serve better. You need to respond reflexively to a threat.

2. Practice, practice, practice in and out of the formal settings. When I am restraining people who are combative, I ALWAYS grip hands in wristlock fashion whether I am applying one or not. Setup is part of it, the other part is habit building. When I have to grab fast, that is the grip I go for. Same way with breakaways, takedowns, stances, approachs, etc. Try to incorporate it discreetly with how you touch people. That way you develop real world habits. You don't have to use force on everyone you meet, but develop habits of hand and foot placement, stance, etc as much as possible.

3. The element of surprise is critical. Don't advertise skill or style with your mouth, your actions, stance, etc. Where I went what classes I took and what I learned is no one's business. If anybody asks, "I don't know none of that chop suey stuff!". Same rules as concealed carry: Concealed means concealed. I don't know anything about "combat stuff", never had any training, never took a class, just like to shoot old rifles sometimes and punch paper on weekends for fun. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

4. If you REALLY want to practice weapon retention, try what the boarding parties in the Coast Guard do: Place an airsoft or fake handgun in your holster, get 3 of your friends together in a triangle with you in the middle and have one of them give you a squirt of pepper spray, then keep the gun in the holster for 1 or 2 minutes (time it) while they try to take it away from you. Yeah, I know, you'll be blind, have trouble breathing, in pain. What do you think will happen in the middle of the real world in a surprise attack when you're getting the stuffing kicked out of you and someone spots your weapon.

4. If you think the above is unrealistic remember this: You won't win every fight. There are people out there that are faster, stronger, and have more training than you. And there may be more than one of them. If you don't believe this you watch too much TV.

5. Which leads to another good principle: Learn to run away, learn to stay away, learn to control space and situations and deescalate. Leave the macho at home. It's not about winning it's about survival. Don't run around looking for trouble. Nothing good happens in public after midnight. Bar fights don't happen outside of bars. Put up your antennas and stay out of crowds, alleys, isolated places, and away from liquid courage. Don't be a target, don't be prey, don't be a trophy, don't be a contest. Be the gray man and melt into the wall.
 
Obviously that 140 pound guy would have a tough time in a real fight with me since I currently have about 100 lbs on him. The point is that because of his skill and technique he still has a chance against a larger opponent. There is no amount of weightlifting that is going to turn him into a 6 foot 250 pound guy. There is a point were size diparity takes over and that guy is just going to overpower you. But with training you can still have a level of effectiveness against a guy like that that you won't gain just by lifting weights. Most fighters would be much better served by increasing their cardio and practicing a few basic techniques than just adding muscle mass. You can't be stronger than everyone. Truth be told the larger muscle mass burns a lot of energy. You see huge guys in boxing, UFC, etc.. that run out of steam VERY quickly without proper cardio. If size was all that mattered Bob Sapp would always win, yet smaller guys have knocked him the heck OUT.

Strength and size are related, but are not the same. There is a way to gain strength without increasing muscle mass. That's the difference between strength training and bodybuilding. You should have been doing more of the former and less of the latter.

Every champion in the UFC strength trains, and most have devastating power. Bj Penn, Georges St. pierre, Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida, Brock Lesnar all strength train. When you are in a sport that is divided into weight classes, gaining strength without adding muscle mass is the key.

Most of us aren't trying to be UFC champs, but strength is critical for maintaining your standard of living. Most people deteriorate because of a lack of strength, not a lack of cardio. And strength levels are actually inversely related to mortality rate. The stronger you are, the longer you are likely to live, the weaker you are, the earlier you are likely to die.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?Db=pubmed&Cmd=ShowDetailView&TermToSearch=18595904&log$=activity
 
Most guys in the UFC also spend long hours training every day. They do agility, strength training, speed training, cardio, stretching.....etc.... Bringing them up as an analogy to my weight training is a LONG stretch if you ask me. Have you fought large weightlifters before? Have you fought guys who do hours of pushups and strength training every day? I have, I do it for a living. Thanks. In fact most of the larger guys do wear out VERY quickly. More mass takes more energy. large guys start out stronger but that strenght tapers off very quickly in most cases. A smaller guy in better shape will maintain his strength levels much longer. Have you tried to hand cuff a 150 pound guy who REALLY wants to fight you? His cardio makes much more difference than his size. You can believe whatever you want.

P.S. Sorry I'm relying on my first hand experience for the last 16 years, I don't have a 'link" to back me up.
 
On a case by case basis,I would say that everyone has a balance point betweenthe two-what works for me (as a 5'8" 150 pounder-who is built more wiry than bulky) is nOT necessarily going to be the same for you big guys.
Take a look at good football players-and NO I never played...they are usually BIG guys,right?Well THEY also balance out their tool-set.They spend a lot of time on th eiron pile-but they ALSO will do field sprints and scab runs LONG after it stops being fun.
And -most sprinters are also VERY strong-that whole "anerobic " thing to balance out their LSD(long sustained distance-not Dr. Leary's finest batch).
 
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