Military Rifle Technique question

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Vonderek

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I have noticed on video footage of our servicemen and women in combat that many have their rifle butts resting on top of their shoulders instead of against the shoulder. Is this a technique that is specifically taught or is it more a matter of convenience?
 
Often wondered that myself and its a darn good question 'cuz the Army sure as heck didn't teach me that technique back in 1971 when I joined up.
 
I think that it is used (for convenience) because of the thick and cumbersome body armor to get the proper LOP...I doubt that it is taught in basic. :)
 
It's caused by the body armor they have to wear.

No shoulder pocket for the butt to go in on a ceramic armor plate.

It does make on old GI wonder how much better they could shoot if they did it right doesn't it!!

Course, these are the same guys that get to "Zero" thier rifles at 25 meters now days too!!

Now, that there just ain't right either!!

rc
 
No shoulder pocket for the butt to go in on a ceramic armor plate.

The SAPI plate doesn't cover the shoulder pocket; it's just the kevlar in the rest of the vest in that area. It also provides a great pivot point from keeping the gun at a high ready, allowing you to snap it into firing position.
 
Well all I know is the Army I was in didn't teach us to shoot with the butt plate on top of our shoulder! Looks like a lack of training to me more then anything else.

The bad guys with the AK's and no marksmanship training have been doing it for years & years too. Mainly so they don't get kicked, or hit anything.

I bet you don't see the Squad Designated Marksmen shooting that way.

rc
 
I never got to have the advantage of usiing the shorter M4 rifle made for the urban enviroment so the body armor thing makes sense, I used the standard m16 20" A2, some old staff sgt taught us having the butt stock high on the shoulder during MOUT training because of the M16's long length in room clearing and stacking.
 
I also saw a soldier operating what looked like an M249 in the same fashion.
 
Mainly so they don't get kicked, or hit anything.

i wouldn't go that far...

i've been shooting HP for years and have always put only the tip toe of the A2 service rifle stock on my shoulder. putting it high up means my head stays straighter
 
ditto to Pandabear.
It reduces the OAL length of the weapon a bit which makes sense going inside small, tight spaces present in urban environments.
 
A state trooper I know explained this to me after he was trained on the M4. Apparently, they are instructed to shoot the rifle in a hunched-over position to allow the shooter to "lean into" the rifle as well as to present a smaller frontal area. When you rest the stock on the tip of the shoulder, it rolls to a more natural stock placement on top of the trapezius muscle when you transition to that position. If you don't hunch down when you bring the rifle up, the butt of the stock will be too high on the chest. As posted above, the light recoil of the 5.56 allows users to get away with this.
 
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Well all I know is the Army I was in didn't teach us to shoot with the butt plate on top of our shoulder! Looks like a lack of training to me more then anything else

Yeah, time and training change. It's not a lack of training, it's merely an adaptation to the body armor, as you first questioned. The stock isn't going on top of the shoulder, just into the top part of the shoulder. It keeps your head up in the sights. Similarly, the AMU is shooting now with the very bottom of the stock engaging the shoulder so that they can stay completely upright with their head upright as well. Looks goofy but it's working for them.
 
RC, the Army doesn't have black boots and OG107 fatigues anymore either. :neener:

IBA sucks for stock weld, so what ever works, works. The rubber add-on "recoil pads" for the M4 were appreciated for giving a bit more stickiness.
 
I think there is some misunderstanding what the OP was actually describing. It's not that the personnel are shooting with a high location of the buttstock, it's that they are scanning with their optics with the buttstock resting on the shoulder. See below for an example:

RS_littleblackcarbine_200806-A1.jpg

This is not a firing position.

Now, high buttstock location in the shoulder is encouraged in match shooting since it keeps the head up and counteracts the body's tendency to sway when the head is tilted foward.
0807290099_std.jpg

A squared up stance is more open to movement and is more of a fighting stance. But this stance does not generally work well with non-collapsible stocks. Also, when this stance is adapted to an armor wearing shooter the toe of the stock ends up a lot higher in the shoulder pocket.
f352f76641.jpg


Another good example of this is to compare pictures from Iraq with those from Afghanistan. One has much shorter engagement ranges than the other and you can see the posture adaptation of the troops.
 
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The important thing is a consistant position of the eye to the sights and if that means a good cheek weld on a low comb like the straight back comb of an M4 then it doesn't much matter where the butt of the rifle is because there's so little recoil to absorb and recover from.

To me it's the best way to shoot accurately with an AR carbine, and I do the same thing with my A2 stock because it gets my eye where I need it for each shot.

In any case with the buffered off recoil of a 5.56 round as in the AR most anything that works for the shooter, especially a soldier who is equipped or burdened in ways that were never envisioned in times gone by, is good.

Saying that it's a result of bad training is like a 1930's father complaining about his 1950's son's ducktail haircut.
 
It reduces the OAL length of the weapon a bit which makes sense going inside small, tight spaces present in urban environments.

Exactly, when you see the guys with the M16s sideways on there shoulder that is because they are clearing buildings and you want to be as compact as possible. Rarely do you see this with M4s.
I don't know about that one pic above but I guess if you are taking an aimed shot, the recoil is not there in an M4 so you could easily shoot with the carbine on top of your shoulder like that.

Whatever works. I was taught fairly recently by an Infantymen to use my non-firing pointer finger to aim when clearing rooms with an M16 up on the shoulder and sideways. The reason we had 16s at all was that this was in WLC (PLDC).
 
Butt on shoulder means good cheek weld and head/sight orientation (as in the Highpower shooter pictured above).
 
they need to put

they need to redisign the buttstock to have a optional high rise cheek rest,and a lower butt end that drops the back to a lower area and agianst the shoulder.but the again if you look at these flat top receiver with rail mount iron sights.


it makes it similar to trying to aim down the eyes of your fishing pole,same goes for a optic sight that is mounted low on a flat top receiver.and if you dont beleive me go grab your fishing pole and hold it where you can use the eyes on it like a sight.i have a A2 upper with a carry handle and my red dot on top it.it sights natural and sits against shoulder perfect
 
I just asked my son, sitting next to me as we enjoy a nice cigar and a beer. He is about to embark on his 3rd tour, and tells me it is because their body armor does not allow a conventional stock into the shoulder pocket. He does not subscribe to this method exactly, saying that some use 550 cord looped thru the rear stock swivel to a carabiner attached to the eupalet on their vest. The idea is to allow the weapon to be close to them, yet allows them to release their grip on the weapon if needed. He also commented on EatAtJoes pic post of the soldier, noting the non-standard rear stock on the soldier's M-4
 
Guess bottom line is there is no "right" way for everyone. Firm cheek weld, good sight picture, be consistent. But nearly every gold medalist at the nationals this year couldn't be wrong. ;)
 
I like that picture of the guy with the M4... Good ole 3rd Infantry Division. Nothing beats the broken television patch.
 
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