.410 pump for apartment HD??

Sounds like you're on the right track.
Almost no one wants to get shot with any firearm. IF a wayward meth addict comes around, the 410 will ruin their day.

It's good you have her to help you learn where you're deficient in your thinking and practice by teaching her.

Racking the shotgun to 'scare' the BG means you lose that +1 on capacity. Better to have it loaded and ready to rock than believe the myth that a racking shotgun makes all BG's wet their pants.

What about using 410 slugs? That's a nasty chunk of metal, but certainly increases the over-penetration risk.

Just curious: what has happened recently in that area to worry your friend and her neighbors? Home invasions?

410 is not adequate for self-defense. It doesn't not penetrate enough to stop someone

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Really? 000 buckshot out of a .410 is 3 .36 caliber lead balls flying around 1300 fps out of the barrel not enough to stop someone? you must be pretty bullet proof. thats faster than most .40 cal pistol rounds with a bore diameter almost the same size.

I bought a Taurus Judge a couple of years ago to use as a beater snake gun of which it does this job perfectly with number 9 shot. When I first got it I had no respect for it because it was a POS Taurus and I definitely had zero respect for the .410.

Since then it has become one of the most shot guns I own and I have come to repect the .410 round and have tested it extensively in all sizes of shot and buck. I am certain the .410 is an adequate close quarters defense round, especially for a townhouse or apartment. I bought another Judge in 3" with a 2" barrel for my nightstand gun. A 12 gauge is my main HD weapon, but if I need something immediately, I have confidence that .410 will do its job. The .410 is defintely not the best choice, but it is certainly adequate for your friends situation.

I think the boxotruth.com may have done some penetration tests with a 410 shot gun. For sure they did the Tarus Judge.

I've had several rabbit hunting 410's they just don't kill as well. I like them though you have to improve on your accuracy Mods are the best. I had a 1100 skeet that I wore out. first was a JC Higgins bolt action I can still remmember my first rabbit at six. Dad knocked him out of a wood pile and I roled him. My pick on 4/10's now it would be the win 42 which I think is the pump 4/10. As soon as I could I went to twelve and 16 I have 3 shotguns a stevens single 12 30 barrel "My dads" an o/u 12 and a superlight or feather light citori in 20. 26 in barrels. My wife keeps it in her rooom stocked with 3,O. It would take more than an exploritary search for bg would stick around after the first blast and is deadly enough especially for indoor behavior adjustment.

Isn't it funny now people who were 100 percent against a gun in the house are starting to inquire. I've had 4 this year who have taken serious layered security and some are looking at ccw.

Jim

lebowski said:

If she won't shoot a 20 I guess the 410 is a decent option. I'm not sure how confidently I'd assume 000 buck won't penetrate, though. Have you tested it on drywall?

As for your pt. #3, get that out of your head. The old "the sound of a pump will make the BG wet his pants" is a ridiculous myth and I really wish people would stop spreading that misinformation around. If someone has the guts to break into an occupied dwelling I would not advise assuming they will run at the sound of a pump. If she's going to be armed you must make certain she has the mindset to use it, not just assume it is a talisman that will protect her.

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It is true that the idea of scaring a "BG" has been spouted all over the internet and in gun lore and conversation in general.

It's also true that people like you, who say that the sound of 9 different .33 caliber balls being loaded, with the intention of the loader to aim and fire those .33 caliber balls at you with incredible force should you take another step, has no affect on the bad guy whatsoever, seriously need to reexamine your thinking.

If she already had a .410, and wanted to use it until she could afford something else, I would say go ahead. But if she's looking to get something new, I would not tell her to get one instead of a 12 or a 20. It's really a matter of perception and training. Anyone can learn to handle a full-size gun. The recoils is somewhat less, but she has to do all the same things with a .410 pump that she would have to do with a 12 ga pump.

Don't hang your life on the sound of a slide racking. It tips the bad guy off, and you can't assume that they are thinking rationally. I keep a chamber empty, but it's because I have kids in the house, not because I want to scare someone with the sound of the slide.

You have to worry about overpenetration no matter what gun you use or what house you're in. Look for some #4 buck.

I'm also concerned about her other two roomates...and her neighbor who lives by herself. Out of those three, only one has had some experience with firearms before. I am trying to get them over here at my house one day to introduce them to firearms a bit. I'm extra concerned about the neighbor...

I told them that I would be watchful as much as possible. I actually live 25 miles away, so I can't really be there when needed...only after a 35 minute drive. I've gave the neighbor a baseball bat to hold her until I can convince her to get a gun.

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I understand that you're concerned for these people, but their personal safety is up to them. Remember that and don't get hung up on being her, or her roommate's, guard dog.
One of the best lessons to impress on them is that they will be on their own for a period of time until the cops show.
If people don't take their personal security seriously, you can't make them no matter how much you care about them.

Hello friends and neighbors // I think the .410 is perfect for a beginner and at this range (inside townhouse ) should be effective.

Since you are in a town house and rightfully concerned for neighbors safety.
You might make yourself aware of areas on opposite side of your walls. Where exactly do your neighbors sleep or sit that could be in line of fire(thru wall) and place beanie baby( or other item) in your townhouse to mark these spots.


////////////sorry bang bang just read your" fully loaded post " after I posted. I'm a slow typer//////////// Good call on .380

as far as cash goes, i recently just sold a gun i picked up for cheap. it was a double barrel (short barrel) 20 guage savage side-by-side. it was about under three feet, and the guy who sold it to me described it as a coach gun. as for not doubles go, my wife got a hold of a remington 1100 .20 guage, and it handled like a dream. accurate, smooth, and little felt recoil. we rented them so im not sure on the prices. but that coach gun was a real room clearer. ive cleared a few houses in iraq, and that little shotty felt pretty good in my arms.

also, im wouldnt buy a .410 for the same reason i wouldnt buy a taurus judge. ive seen plenty of reviews on the judge, and unless your using the biggest shot, or slugs, its just not worth the time or effort.

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139335319
heres a link to the shotgun i was talking about. and for $199.
they handle high power and magnum loads well too. i shot a lot of turkey loads through mine.

I've done told you all I've loaded the thing...she's not going to be racking the slide unless she fires. It's not the sound...it's the physical look of a shotgun that will make a BG think twice about moving.

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Nope, that won't necessarily do it either. I know a man who was killed while assaulting a shotgun wielding individual who he saw was armed from about 30 feet away. The BG was armed with a Buck knife. He charged that shotgun armed man. Wasn't dissuaded at all.

Granted, the sight of a shotgun would dissuade a rational individual. Of course, your scenario assumes that the burglar breaking into the apartment is a rational individual. Since burglary does not seem to be a very rational act to me, it seems your scenario is a bit shaky.

beatcop said:

IIRC a .410 will generate the same velocity as any other gauge, but with a greatly reduced payload...the penetration of one 000 ball will be the same as a 12ga.

If she has no real intention of practicing with a handgun, a shotgun may be the best choice all around. I would just have her pick up a basic mossberg 500 in 12 gauge and run reduced recoil ammo. She isn't going to mind the recoil in a real situation and it will sell quickly when it she decides to get rid of it.

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Yes thank you! I was wondering when someone would finally point this out.

All other intimidation arguments aside, I would take the reliable pump .410 any handgun any day of the week. Yes, a 12 or 20 gauge would be preferred, but shooting 3 or five lead pellets at once - each roughly the size of a 9mm round - is nothing to sneeze at by any means.

Saiga makes a .410 semi- auto shotgun ( SGL 41- 61) that can take a 10 round magazine. Too pricey for my taste, but I think that would beef up the .410 to the "serious" category for home defense.
Me, I will stick to my little Stoeger side- by- side coachgun in 20- gauge loaded with no. 3 buck.

I see all of these posts saying a .410 is not adequate for selfdefense. At ranges of point blank to 20 ft (Size of a room) even with large bird shot it can effect a serious wound and kill. I recall a case many years ago where on a traffic stop a cop in chicago was killed by sawed .410 off and the load was most certainly just plain bird shot. I guess the crook did not realize that .410's could kill.
I seem to recall thata .410 can take up to 11/16oz of #4 bird shot. At 5-20 feet away such a load can be very lethal. At longer ranges it really does not matter for apartment defense.
Gave the lady the gun, the important thing is that she be competent to use it for SD.
I use a .357 sig, 9mm, AKs, and 12 ga myself, but for a limited mission inside an apartment I would not be defenseless with only a .410.

isthatajoke? said:

It's also true that people like you, who say that the sound of 9 different .33 caliber balls being loaded, with the intention of the loader to aim and fire those .33 caliber balls at you with incredible force should you take another step, has no affect on the bad guy whatsoever, seriously need to reexamine your thinking.

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I would be afraid of a pump shotgun, and I'd guess you probably would be too. Then again, I wouldn't break into an occupied home, and I'm willing to bet you wouldn't either.

Your error in logic is assuming a home invader is a sober, rational individual. It's equally foolish to assume a home invader is unarmed - meaning if the sound of the pump does "scare" him, IMO he's just as likely to start shooting in the direction of the pump sound as he is to run away.

I reiterate my opinion that the "sound of the pump will scare them away" is a dangerous mindset and one that should be forgotten. If the pump sound does scare them into leaving, great, but that shouldn't be your intention or your assumption when you go for the gun.

Not to mention that if you posters can't fathom the depth of depravity, stupidity, and overall toughness that some career criminals are capable of, you've led very nice sheltered lives wherever you are.

People commit suicide by cop regularly enough that there is a name for it that every cop has memorized. This is done while looking down the barrel of a gun they know is loaded and is being held by a person who will open fire.

The problem is not that a shotgun racking won't make a guy shart himself and run, but it won't make every burglar do that. The ones that don't run can read you like a scared rabbit because they're predators. If you have the smallest inkling of doubt, they will see it and maybe take their chances. Then your cheshire cat grin at the satisfaction of getting the drop on a guy and then giving away your position, weapon type, gender, size, personality, and other factors will get wiped right off your face.

Not everyone who burgles a home is Jean Valjean looking for a loaf of bread to feed their heart of gold or a cowardly crackhead looking for something worth 5 bucks.

I wouldn't hesitate to use a 410 if I grabbed it.