Rifle Caliber choices...30WCF or 357 Magnum?

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Blue Brick

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I am thinking about a buying a rifle to use for small, medium and larger Arizona game at very short ranges with traditional open sights (100 yards or less), but I can’t decide which caliber to purchase. I have narrowed the choices down to 30WCF or 357 Magnum. The main considerations are the cartridge’s versatility, affordability, availability and possibly home defense. Both cartridges have similar affordability and availability, but the 30WCF has an advantage in range and power where as the 357 magnum has the advantage of versatility with the use of 38 Special cartridges. Any suggestions? Thanks.


Additional notes. I have a revolver chambered in one the cartridges mentioned and hope to someday reload my own ammunition.
 
The last sentence makes you an ideal candidate for the Marlin in .357, one of the funnest guns under the sun. As you will discover, reloading .38 and .357 is as easy as reloading can be; and you can go from piddling little grandaughter plinker loads to 180 grain bullets that will reliably kill anything I know of walking in Arizona.

What is 'larger' game in Arizona? What's the outer limit of the hunting application you have in mind? Because for open-sighted shots to 100 yards, a .357 does everything you want just fine up to medium-sized deer.
 
Not Just for Cowboys Anymore

The frontier concept of rifle and revolver using the same common ammunition still makes sense and “won’t scare the natives.”

A .357 lever action is manageable by females and youngsters. It has low recoil and is fairly quiet when used with standard velocity lead .38 Special ammo. It is a fun camp gun which works great for small game, feral dogs and groundhogs. When firing .38 Special standard velocity (non +P) lead bullet ammo from a rifle, velocity remains subsonic, producing a mild report little louder than a .22, which has advantages for discreet garden varminting.

Its potential for home defense with .357 ammunition, is nothing to sneeze at.
A .357 levergun with proper ammunition is fully adequate for deer within 100 yards and with peep sights is more accurate on silhouette targets out to 200 yards than your average AK. But leverguns are familiar and nonthreatening in appearance, so they "don't scare the natives" as a "black rifle" often does.

The Marlin lever-gun requires better sights, but you can install these yourself. The most rugged, durable iron sights are the XS ghost ring peep. If cost-conscious you can stop right there and will have a good outfit. But if you have trouble seeing iron sights well, or want to improve your longer range and low light performance, add the XS Lever-Scout rail. This accepts a variety of quick detachable optics, such as a hunting scope or military reflex sight, leaving the peep sights available for backup.

New leverguns also cost less than so-called "black rifles." So use the money you save to buy a Dillon RL500B to load your own ammo! Used .357 lever-guns sell for about 60% in stores of what a similar rifle costs new. Around here Marlin .357 Micrgroove rifles sell for about $100 less than a similar model with Ballard rifling, because people think that "Microgrooves won't shoot lead." In my experience of some 25 years, the 1894C with Microgroove rifling shoots lead bullets just fine, as long as you stick to standard pressure or +P .38 Specials at subsonic velocities.

Microgroove barrels handle jacketed bullet .357 Magnum loads best. The 158-gr. soft-point is what you want to use for deer from the rifle. The 125-grain JHPs are best for personal defense from the revolver, or for varmint use in the rifle. Jacketed bullet .357magnum rounds are expensive. You will actually need and use very few of them, so just buy a several boxes of factory loads for TEOTWAWKI.

Standard velocity .38 Special, 158-grain lead semi-wadcutters are the basic utility load for both rifle and revolver. This is what you want to set up your RL500B to assemble in quantity. Bulk Remington .358 diameter 158-grain semi-wadcutters assembled in .38 Special brass with 3.5 grains of Bullseye approximate the velocity, accuracy and energy of factory standard velocity loads. Velocity is about 750 f.p.s. from a 3 inch revolver, and 950 f.p.s. from an 18 inch carbine. Ordinary lead plinking loads shoot into 4 inches at 100 yards from the Marlin. Jacketed soft-point .357 magnums shave an inch off of that. If you buy powder and primers in bulk, component cost to reload brass that you have saved with the plinking load is about 8 cents per pop. If you cast your own bullets you will save a nickel. Jacketed bullets cost more than a dime each. Buy a few boxes of factory loads and conserve.

“Cowboy assault rifle.” My 1894 Marlin has a Trijicon Reflex II sight Model RX09 with A.R.M.S. #15 Throw Lever Mount fitted into an XS Systems Lever Scout rail. XS mounts are dimensioned to accept Weaver bases. Fitting the military M1915 rail base requires you to determine which cross-slot you will locate your optic onto. You want the optical sight at the balance point of the rifle. After you have located the proper cross slot to position your sight, adjust the slot width and depth with a square Swiss needle file to enable the mounting clamp crossbar to press-fit snugly into it. Retract the thumb clamps and slide the A.R.M.S. mount over the front of the rail. The rear mount clamp tightens against the angled sides of the rail only. You want no “slop” after you have fitted the crossbar slot depth and corners. After fitting, the A.R.M.S. #15 thumb-lever mount offers quick-disconnect with perfect return to zero. I can use the tritium illuminated, no batteries required ever, combat optic or backup ghost ring peeps at will.

I zero 158-grain .357 magnum loads to coincide with the pointed top of the tritium- illuminated chevron at 100 yards. Standard velocity .38s hit "on" at 50 yards. Holding the legs of the chevron tangent to the top of a 12-inch gong at 200 yards I can hit with magnums every time. Placing the chevron across the shoulders of an Army E silhouette I make repeat hits out to at 300 if I do my part.

If I had to “bug out,” carrying only what I could on my back, a lever-gun and .357revolver combo isn’t the world’s worst choice. I don’t plan to fight off the whole world. I just want to protect myself, my supplies and gear, put time, distance and shielding between me and any threat, put meat in the pot and get the job done.
 
Another factor in favor of .357 Mag.:

https://www.hornady.com/shop/08_357-44_mag.htm
http://www.chuckhawks.com/leverevolution.htm

Most people say these flex tips add 30 to 50 % to the effective range of the rifle (however you define effective range.) I think that gets the .357 up to the range of the 30WCF?

The down sides? The .357 Leverevolution rounds are expensive and I don’t think Hornady is currently selling .357 Flex Tip bullets for reloaders (through they do sell 6 different calibers of Evolution rifle bullets, and may offer the pistol caliber flex tips bullets in the future.) And at 140 grains some may say the .357 Leverevolution rounds are too light for deer.
 
I would never shoot a .357 at 3 of the 11 big game species listed there (buffalo, black bear, and elk). Two of the remaining I'd have serious questions about (muleys and sheep... not sure how tough sheep are). Out of your two calibre choices, i'd pick the .30 WCF (which is a 30-30 if I'm not mistaken...) I have a Marlin chambered in .44 mag and i love it. I'm not a fan of recoil (a .270 is a bit much for me), but the 44 is very manageable and pleasant to shoot. I think it's worth a look, and probably a better choice than .357 for some of the game you may encounter.
 
Go back to square A and just get a .30 M-1 carbine. Thats the type of gun that fits your wants and need plus they are neat and fun.
 
try and find a older(pre-64) winchester 30-30,i bought a very nice 94 win made in 1955 for 260.00 and put a lyman peep sight on it. it shoots alot flatter out to 150-200 yds than any 357 mag rifle, and there is not much difference in weight or lenth. go to a gun shop and handle both from different makers,that should help you deside whats best for you. eastbank.
 
While I have a couple .30-30s and like them alot, I also have a .357 levergun and a couple single-shots in that caliber and for most utility use the .357 is more useful.

If you REALLY need to have an adequate rifle for elk or buffalo you don't want a .30-30 either. If the .357 with full loads in a rifle won't handle the situation a .30-30 is a poor step up.

My advice is to do the .357 combo, but when funds permit get yourself a bolt action .308Win. or .30-'06 for longer range, more serious stuff. If you don't handload and would use only factory ammo, milsurp 7.62 NATO / .308 ammo is easier to find, but if you will handload the larger case capacity of the '06 has advantages.
 
This is spot on.

If you REALLY need to have an adequate rifle for elk or buffalo you don't want a .30-30 either. If the .357 with full loads in a rifle won't handle the situation a .30-30 is a poor step up.

An elk rifle--even a short range elk rifle--is not going to be famed for versatility. And Buffalo? What you want, I think, is a bigger bore.

I believe you want a .45 ('long') Colt levergun. Not quite as affordable (for ammo; the gun shouldn't cost any more) as a .357, but still very versatile. Much more affordable (and versatile) if you take up reloading, for which this caliber is VERY well suited. If not, .45 Colt loads available from companies like Buffalo bore, which will be safe to use in a modern levergun, will do the trick on all these critters at short distances. Or at least all of them up to Buffalo. If you really plan to take a Bison, I'd just get a 45-70.
 
I would look at bullet selection before anything else...

Are there any 165, 170, 180 gr bullets available for the .357?

Those you need at ranges beyond 75 yds on elk, bear even deer...
 
out of a 1948 model 64 win in 3030, i shoot a remington corelock 150 round nose at a honest 2400fps. thats at least 500fps faster than a 357 mag with the 158gr bullet and thats more than a poor step up. and it,s easier to hit out to 200 yds,100 zero and you only 7.6 down at 200yds and ft-lbs are 840 at 200yds. want more try the new evolution loads with pointed bullets,over 1200ft-lbs at 200 yds with only a 6 inch drop. use a 357 mag if you want, but don,t say the 3030 is a poor step up. compared to the 3030 the 357 is short ranged at best. eastbank.
 
+1 for Eastbank


Hornady Leverevolution 30-30 160 gr. has 1025 ft/lb left at 300 yards

Your regular remchesteral flat nose load 170 gr. has between 7-800 ft/lb left at 300 yards

Out of a carbine pipe with similar bullet weight, a 30-30 has roughly double the muzzle energy of a 357 (comparing Hodgdon realod data for the 2 cartridges)....and with better SD and BC you further gain in range and penetration capabilities.

So the 30-30 is not a poor step up.....yes you can kill deer as dead with both out to 100-150 yards, but the 2 rounds are not even close in general performance...I heard that nonsense quite few times .."the two rounds are almost equivalent out of a rifle...." I don't know where this legend come from....


Yes you have the super hot Buffalo Bore in 357....but you can have nuclear loads in 30-30 too....
 
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The .30-30 (.30 WCF) isn't your grandfather's .30-30 any more. With LeveRevolution ammunition (and the bullets are sold as components for reloaders) it's a whole 'nother ball game. Given your two choices, I'd pick the .30-30 and never look back.
 
It's fine to look at the numbers and say that 30-30 is a significant step up from .357M, but it also misses the mark.

If your goal is to have something unquestionably suitable for all Arizona big game, the .357 is a mediocre choice (a "no way on 3 of 10"), and 30-30 is a mediocre choice (a "not ideal on 3 of 10"), which makes it a poor step up. A 7mm mag, 300 mag, 30-06, or similar would be good choices ("acceptable for 10 of 10") and makes a good step up.
 
A 7mm mag, 300 mag, 30-06, or similar would be good choices ("acceptable for 10 of 10") and makes a good step up.
But that's not among the choices the OP gave us. He only asked about .357 versus .30-30, "to use for small, medium and larger Arizona game at very short ranges with traditional open sights (100 yards or less.)" Of these two, the .30-30 is the better choice. With handloads ranging from cast bullets to LeveRevolution bullets, it's the more versatile of the two.
 
Ed


The 30-30 limitation even on very big games is mostly about the distance not much the power....the 357 for certain type of game is a poor choice regardless of a distance.

For Elk, for example, a 357 is a poor choice regardless...within 100-150 yards the 30-30 is adequate....with the leverevolution bullet the 30 WCF get almost into 30-40 Krag or 303 British territory..I heard of Elk cleanly taken at 200 yards+ with the Leverevolution...and not a lucky or isolated shot..
 
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Having had both a .30-30 lever action (still got it) and a .357 Mag/.38 Spl lever action (sold it), let me say if it’s a contest of power, it ain’t even close. The .30-30 is way, WAY, more powerful than the biggest and baddest .357 Magnum on it’s bestest day. Not even close. Seriously, people. It can’t even be debated with a straight face.

As for what Ed Harris says in his very nice post - the exact same things can be said about the .30-30, but in spades. Everything except being able to share ammo with a pistol. Which IMO is more of a “fantasy” benefit, than anything tangible.

In any event, that whole pistol/rifle thing works much better if you start with a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt. They’re both much more flexible cartridges, each with much more potential, than the .357 Mag.

As far as hunting the “Arizona Eleven” with a traditional lever action, forget the .30-30. With Elk at the top of the list, as a minimum I’d want a .375 Winchester, and the .444 Marlin, .450 Marlin, or .45-70 would be better still.
 
Those weren't amongst the OP's listed options, but they are always options. The fellow giving the advice said, to paraphrase, "those are too close together...get the 357 for versitility and get a .308 or the like later on."

I think that's sound advice. Then again I find the 30-30 baffling. There are hundreds of better cartridges yet people still keep making rifles in 30-30 and nobody can really explain why. Strange.
 
there are alot of better calibures for what he wants to hunt, and alot that are worse. but i would not feel under gunned with a 3030 lever action rifle hunting any of them,with shots kept under 200 yds and thru the lungs, meat would be on the table. eastbank.
 
btw:
In any event, that whole pistol/rifle thing works much better if you start with a .44 Magnum or .45 Colt. They’re both much more flexible cartridges, each with much more potential, than the .357 Mag.

I agree. In my case I went with the .45 Colt in its .454 Casull guise. At 200 yards it needs only an extra 4" of hold over vs. 30-30 and delivers ~400fp more energy while poking a bigger hole....and I can drop the same cartridges into my revolver and get respectable (44 mag level) performance. I don't see a huge difference between it and the .45C versions except that right now .454 Casull ammo is easier to find in stores.
 
At 200 yards it needs only an extra 4" of hold over vs. 30-30 and delivers ~400fp more energy while poking a bigger hole....

Who has more energy than a 30 WCF at 200 yards, the 45 LC or the 454???

Definitely not the 45 LC.....I'm sure the 454 out of a carbine barrel has more energy than a 30-30 at the muzzle (out of a revolver barrel the energy of the 454 is just about the same of a 30 WCF out of a carbine) but 200 yards is far out there and the 454 bullet is very stubby and unaerodynamic
 
A decently hot .454 Casull load out of a 20" carbine will, due to the inefficient bullet, shed ~1750fpe over 200yards...only delivering the remaining ~1350fpe to the target. IIRC a (150gr) 30-30 will, because of its higher ballistic coefficient, only lose ~950fpe over the same 200 yards....which means it will end up with ~950fpe on impact.

There are people who load .45C to nearly Casull levels but let's not go there. .45LC...Long Colt to me would mean something longer than regular Colt... that could be either .454 Casull or .460S&W. ;)
 
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