Most of us in the gun owning community are apailed at the thought of firearm registration. Yet it seems as if a lot of the same people are falling all over themselves to register themselves as gun owners.I may be dense but if I was the gvt. and looking to confiscate firearms I would probably go after those that had been kind enough to tell me that they owned guns. You give the gvt. your name, address, fingerprints and don't expect them to come for you if or when they pass gun confiscation laws? I guess I'm just too dumb and don't understand this obvious conflict of interest. FRJ
Why CCW?
- Thread starter FRJ
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Actually, CCW means Concealed Carry of Deadly Weapons. It doesn't just apply to firearms. I am sure there are folks out there who have applied to obtain a CCW permit, and carry deadly weapons other than firearms.
Being a holder of a CCW permit does not necessarily mean that you are a registered owner of a firearm.
Being a holder of a CCW permit does not necessarily mean that you are a registered owner of a firearm.
jfdavis58
Member
Obviously, you've hit upon the central conundrum of CCW in most states. So what are you missing? Well, the fact that law abiding citizens play within the law as a matter of personal character.
Until 'they' actually come for me and my guns I choose to exercise all my freedoms and rights to the fullest legal extent.
What happens when 'they' come is a matter for much thought and wild speculation.
Until 'they' actually come for me and my guns I choose to exercise all my freedoms and rights to the fullest legal extent.
What happens when 'they' come is a matter for much thought and wild speculation.
Actually, CCW means Concealed Carry of Deadly Weapons. It doesn't just apply to firearms. I am sure there are folks out there who have applied to obtain a CCW permit, and carry deadly weapons other than firearms.
This is probably true but I doubt that it applies to a very high percentage of the permit holders. As for the other records listed they are not specific and I believe that the first place the gvt. would look is at the CCW lists. The others may be looked at eventually but by that time any evidence of firearms would probably be gone. FRJ
This is probably true but I doubt that it applies to a very high percentage of the permit holders. As for the other records listed they are not specific and I believe that the first place the gvt. would look is at the CCW lists. The others may be looked at eventually but by that time any evidence of firearms would probably be gone. FRJ
X-Rap
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My point with the other references is only that if there were no permits or even 4473 forms there is ample information available to a power that wants to know or at least have a suspect list.
We are better off fighting now for our rights than waiting and thinking about how we can hide what is rightfully ours.
We are better off fighting now for our rights than waiting and thinking about how we can hide what is rightfully ours.
In addition to my long term firearms rights, I also feel obligated to do everything in my power to protect myself and my family should I need too. My wife was at the Von Maur department store in Omaha Nebraska during the shooting a few years back, and I remember the feeling of helplessness I had, and also the feeling that I would never allow that to happen again.
If the feds want to round up guns and take them away, ccw lists are but one method available. In the mean time I am going to carry where allowed by law.
If the feds want to round up guns and take them away, ccw lists are but one method available. In the mean time I am going to carry where allowed by law.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
If you don't apply for your carry licesne or permit (in PA it is a "License To Carry Firearms" by the way) you have two choices: You can go without your sidearm or you can violate the state's laws and carry without it. (In some areas, like here, you have a third option -- open carry -- but that is another debate.)
If you go without your weapon, you have denied the government one of the many ways that they could possibly track you, but you may find yourself in dire need of that weapon at any time. Is this trade-off of risks worth it to you?
If you carry without a license/permit in states that require one, you now have two types of harm to try and aviod: The violent aggressors who's potential activities have prompted you to carry a gun in the first place, AND the state who's penalties if you are discovered may be quite severe and may plague you for the rest of your life. Is that a risk you really want to take?
Sure you can live VERY carefully and maybe you will get away with it forever. But the odds, over the course of a long life, are against you.
In the end, it really comes down to the fact that most of us will choose to follow the law, both for ethical and very practical reasons. And because we understand that a CCW/LCTF is just one more in a long chain of identifiers a tyrranical govenrment COULD use to track us down. Understanding that we cannot reasonably live deep enough in the shadows to avoid whatever eyes may see us, we accept one more minor "hook" because it gives us important benefits.
If nothing else, in a lot of places a citizen's CCW/LCTF is seen as a kind of "Good Guy Card" that tells a law enforcement officer that the holder has a clean record and is pretty likely to fall within that segment of society that isn't going to give him any reason for stress. (Search here for how many folks attribute a cop seeing their permit for getting them out of speeding tickets, etc.)
On the other hand, you may be a fine, upstanding person who never harmed anyone and who lives an exemplary life, but if a cop discovers that you are carrying a weapon illegally, you may spend a long time in jail and will never own firearms (legally) again.
Are the risks worth the benefit you think you're getting?
-Sam
If you go without your weapon, you have denied the government one of the many ways that they could possibly track you, but you may find yourself in dire need of that weapon at any time. Is this trade-off of risks worth it to you?
If you carry without a license/permit in states that require one, you now have two types of harm to try and aviod: The violent aggressors who's potential activities have prompted you to carry a gun in the first place, AND the state who's penalties if you are discovered may be quite severe and may plague you for the rest of your life. Is that a risk you really want to take?
Sure you can live VERY carefully and maybe you will get away with it forever. But the odds, over the course of a long life, are against you.
In the end, it really comes down to the fact that most of us will choose to follow the law, both for ethical and very practical reasons. And because we understand that a CCW/LCTF is just one more in a long chain of identifiers a tyrranical govenrment COULD use to track us down. Understanding that we cannot reasonably live deep enough in the shadows to avoid whatever eyes may see us, we accept one more minor "hook" because it gives us important benefits.
If nothing else, in a lot of places a citizen's CCW/LCTF is seen as a kind of "Good Guy Card" that tells a law enforcement officer that the holder has a clean record and is pretty likely to fall within that segment of society that isn't going to give him any reason for stress. (Search here for how many folks attribute a cop seeing their permit for getting them out of speeding tickets, etc.)
On the other hand, you may be a fine, upstanding person who never harmed anyone and who lives an exemplary life, but if a cop discovers that you are carrying a weapon illegally, you may spend a long time in jail and will never own firearms (legally) again.
Are the risks worth the benefit you think you're getting?
-Sam
In the state that I come from you are definately not looked on as a good guy if you have a CCW. It is tied to the licence plate on your car and if you are stopped you may be approached in a felony arrest mode rather than a simple traffic stop. I just don't believe that the gvt. is here to help me. I believe that they will do anything they can to enslave me. Therefore no CCW for me.
Talk to Bernie Goetz, the 1984 Subway Vigilante. He defended himself with an unlicensed handgun in a New York subway from some armed robbers. He was tried for various assault related crimes and the weapons charge. He was acquitted of the assaults (the jury found his use of force to be justified self defense); but he was convicted and went to jail on the weapons charge (and he was hammered in a subsequent civil suit).
Carl N. Brown
Member
Why not CCW?
The feds have 4473s on me so why worry about a state permit record?
I don't know about CCW, we have THCP and the H is Handgun. Carry of anything outside the home for offense or defense is the crime of "going armed" in Tennessee with two main exceptions.
Tennessee handgun carry permit THCP is two-stage: first you get certified as eligible by a state-recognized instructor, then you apply for a permit to carry with the Tennessee Department of Safety TDOS to carry a handgun for self-defense.
To carry a cane for self-defense, you just need to be certified as trained by a recognized martial arts instructor.
Otherwise you are illegally "going armed" if outside your home carrying weapon for offense or defense.
One impact of shall-issue right-to-carry is that it removes the defense of necessity often cited to justify going armed without a permit (where permits are impossible to get as in Chicago, NYC, DC or TN and VA before shall-issue). One impact of shall-issue RTC may be reduction in unlicensed carry, since it removes the "rather explain before a judge than lie before a coroner" defense.
The feds have 4473s on me so why worry about a state permit record?
I don't know about CCW, we have THCP and the H is Handgun. Carry of anything outside the home for offense or defense is the crime of "going armed" in Tennessee with two main exceptions.
Tennessee handgun carry permit THCP is two-stage: first you get certified as eligible by a state-recognized instructor, then you apply for a permit to carry with the Tennessee Department of Safety TDOS to carry a handgun for self-defense.
To carry a cane for self-defense, you just need to be certified as trained by a recognized martial arts instructor.
Otherwise you are illegally "going armed" if outside your home carrying weapon for offense or defense.
One impact of shall-issue right-to-carry is that it removes the defense of necessity often cited to justify going armed without a permit (where permits are impossible to get as in Chicago, NYC, DC or TN and VA before shall-issue). One impact of shall-issue RTC may be reduction in unlicensed carry, since it removes the "rather explain before a judge than lie before a coroner" defense.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
What state is that? If you don't have a CCW, and haven't been through this, how do you know? Talk and hearsay? "I read it on the errornet?"
If you are harrassed (cuffed and roughed up, etc.) for a legal activity, you and your lawyer can get quite rich on the settlement!
If you get caught carrying a weapon in violation of your states laws, your worries that the government will "enslave you" will probably prove self-fulfilling.
Fight the power, man! Live free or die! Throw down your chains and your carry permits! Burn your bras! Wear black shoes with a brown belt! Party like it's $19.99!
Actually, darned if I know.
-Sam
Carl N. Brown
Member
I think this thread has been moved from THR > Social Situations > Activism
to THR > Social Situations > General Gun Discussions
to THR > Social Situations > General Gun Discussions
Barbarian!Sam1911 said:
What state is that? If you don't have a CCW, and haven't been through this, how do you know? Talk and hearsay? "I read it on the errornet?"
If you are harrassed (cuffed and roughed up, etc.) for a legal activity, you and your lawyer can get quite rich on the settlement
The state is Oregon and I was there in a friends truck when it happened.
If you think your going to get rich sueing the police I've got a tower and bridge to sell you. Harder to sue a cop than a doctor.
If you are harrassed (cuffed and roughed up, etc.) for a legal activity, you and your lawyer can get quite rich on the settlement
The state is Oregon and I was there in a friends truck when it happened.
If you think your going to get rich sueing the police I've got a tower and bridge to sell you. Harder to sue a cop than a doctor.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
FRJ,
Have you ever purcased a gun through a dealer? Ever bought a rifle through the CMP? Ever filed an NFA related form with the ATF? Member of the NRA, GOA, SAF? Member of IDPA or USPSA or other competative shooting organization? Get the "Cheaper than Dirt" or "Sportsman's Guide" catalogs in the mail? No? Never?
Well, whew! You should be good then. Bury 'em deep and get off the grid!
But wait...wait! You've posted on THR! Oh no! Now your plan is ruined! You're on a list!
Crap. Oh well. Guess you might as well go get your CCW now.
-Sam
Have you ever purcased a gun through a dealer? Ever bought a rifle through the CMP? Ever filed an NFA related form with the ATF? Member of the NRA, GOA, SAF? Member of IDPA or USPSA or other competative shooting organization? Get the "Cheaper than Dirt" or "Sportsman's Guide" catalogs in the mail? No? Never?
Well, whew! You should be good then. Bury 'em deep and get off the grid!
But wait...wait! You've posted on THR! Oh no! Now your plan is ruined! You're on a list!
Crap. Oh well. Guess you might as well go get your CCW now.
-Sam
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
O.k. So what's the rest of the story? He had a tail light out, got pulled over, the cop ID'd him as having a CCW permit, and on the basis of that cuffed & stuffed him, took his gun, and then what? Was there a charge? Did he/you file a formal complaint? What actually happened?
I overstate the case. But you can effect SIGNIFICANT change by standing up for your rights. Look at what the VCDL has done down in VA.
I've never heard that Oregon is that bad. In fact, there are some vocal Open Carry folks from up your way. Might be a good idea to find some like-minded individuals in your area who can guide you through your state laws and support you in standing up to illegal harrassment.
-Sam
NinjaFeint
Member
True...We also have this silly thing where open carry is actually legal yet if anyone is alarmed by you open carrying you will lose your permit. In practice in CT, if your open carry causes someone to notify the police you are basically guilty of creating a public disturbance. The instructor in my classes required to get my permit gave example of this happening.
Back to the topic that started the thread, not applying for a CCW will not stop the government from having information on you. As others said, the internet is not the friend of privacy it just gives the illusion of anonymity.
mcdonl
Member
Too bad for you. I follow the principle that I will not be bullied, frightened and intimidated into giving up my rights.
I am on a government list. Several I suppose. But the one I am most proud to be on is the one that our friendly legislators pull out to say... "Look... look how important the 2nd amendment is to our good, law abiding citizens...."
FRJ said:
Man, are you sticking it to them or what? That'll show 'em, givin' up one of your rights to stay off a list, yeah!
As has been pointed out, you are already on the "list". So am I and I have no problem with it. Stand up and be counted, add yourself to that "list" so if "they" are looking at coming after the names on the "list" it begins to look very foreboding. Live your life and exercise your rights, lose the tinfoil while you're at it.
Carl N. Brown
Member
There is no ultimate anonymity on the internet. Think before you post.
mcdonl
Member
The only people I know who own firearms and are not CCW holders are people who have a criminal past, and CANNOT get a CCW.
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